Confrontation

 

Am I acting as I speak? This e-mail exchange might explain better what I do and why.

From: "Jimmy Svensson" <jimmysv@kth.se> To: ahl@xenu.net Subject: Confrontation Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:21:16 Hi Andreas! During the last couple of days I have been busy discovering the many interesting pages of your Operation Clambake site. In this mail I wish to discuss how outsiders best can confront Scientologists. As I am new to the subject, I might be over my head here. You helpfully link to the CIC page "How Do I Help a Cult Member? - The Do's and Don'ts". I have also read your correspondance with CoS members, which impresses me greatly. Your reasoning is logical and insightful. That said, when reading your mails, I get the feeling that you value winning the argument higher than winning the Scientologist over to your side. Let me show you what I mean, by coupling some DON'Ts from CIC with quotes by you, taken from the correspondance labeled "You are a fool!" (http://www.xenu.com/archive/free_speech/fool.html). DO NOT say:"You are in a cult; you are brainwashed". "You, my friend, is the model of all victims of hoaxes as the one engineered by L Ron Hubbard." "[Hubbard] even wrote a book on mind control, you know. You are his experiment." DO NOT act in an angry or hostile manner towards the cult member. "What a sad excuse of a person you are." DO NOT antagonise the cult member by ridiculing his/her beliefs. "You know space aliens came to earth 75 millions years ago and slaughtered billions? You know Hubbard wrote shit like this, and it is 'revealed' in OT III?" DO NOT antagonise any of the cult's leadership or members. "... I'll do what it takes to openly fight the likes of David Miscavige and his gang ..." "Hubbard himself was mad." Admittably, these quotes are all taken out of context. I also want to stress yet again that I think that the majority of what you write in the mails is excellent work. Also, it might be true that the Scientologist in question deserved it, as he/she writes much worse things to you. However, the problem, as I see it, is that the Scientologist reading this might filter out all the good things you write, and only focus on things like the quotes above. By breaking these DON'Ts, is there not a great risk that the Scientologist will go into a defensive mode, where the indoctrination from the cult shields him/her from any truths you might present? I see you as a very capable person, and therefore I draw the conclusion that you have broken these DONT's deliberately, rather than in the heat of the moment. Two possible reasons for doing this comes to mind. Either you simply do not care about helping the Scientologist, and simply want to give them a little verbal beating. I feel that the contents of your homepage proves that this is not the case. That leaves me with the possibility that you simple have given up all hopes of actually 'rescuing' the individual. Are the mental chains that the CoS gives its members so strong that we should give up hope on the members, and only focus on stopping new people from being lured inte CoS? In the hope of enlightenment/a mild beating ;) Jimmy Svensson PS Yes, I come from Stockholm and do speak swedish. But although I am sure you would have no problem understanding my swedish, I dare not say the same about my knowledge of the norwegian language.

From: heldal@online.no From: "Jimmy Svensson" <jimmysv@kth.se> Subject: Re: Confrontation Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:41 Jimmy, It is a valid and good observation you have made. I will try to explain where I stand and my motivation for debating with selected Scientologists. The goal of my involvement (Operation Clambake etc) is not to convert existing Scientologists. I don't believe I'm that good at debating. My motivation is first and foremost to try to prevent new people from being recruited into this cult by making critical information easily available. Because I live a good life with all freedoms coming to me without much effort I feel obliged to stand up against deceit and fraud when I see it. My philosophy is that if someone like me do not dare or care enough to do so, then I do not deserve the freedom I got. I get a lot of e-mails and letters. There are frustrated parents and friends, who I try to focus on, and current and former Scientologists. And the regular lunatics who believe Scientologists are in their walls or heads giving them orders. Since I do not believe I can change anybody by debating with them over e-mail, doing so is more motivated by educating myself and others. I deliberately select Scientologists who stand out as strong and mature, I don't want to select a 16 year old who is easy to ridicule or win a debate with. I don't care where the debate goes or which one of us "wins", it's the process that is interesting for me. I get to "sense check" my opinions and facts and a good debate can be a good motivation to keep going. People who have someone they care for and who want to get them out of CoS should not follow my foot steps, they are closer to the person and should read carefully the advice from CIC and read Hassan's book. To get someone out you need an organized effort from people close to him/her. They do not have a need to expose the persons lack of arguments and communication skills for example. Posting some of my debates on OC is to help others see how the mind of a Scientologist can work, what are their arguments and weak points. My audience is other critics and for example people who just were introduced to CoS and the first they did was to go to Google and find my site. I want to burst the Scientology balloon for them before it gets too big. I also believe in planting "seeds of doubt" and if some Scientologists visiting my site take something in that is great. I would be lying if I said I never wrote anything in the heat of the moment, there is always things I might have wanted to rephrase if I could write it again. But I am only human. Hopefully I learn from my mistakes when I go back and read what I wrote. :) Hope this answers some of your questions. Take care. Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund # home.online.no/~heldal # www.xenu.net Phone: +47 88 00 66 66 # Address: Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Each of us does what we can do. Our obligation is to do it as well as we can, with as much grace, dignity, integrity and honor our egos can tolerate. ---------------------------------------------[Robert Vaughn Young]-----

From: "Jimmy Svensson" <jimmysv@kth.se> To: heldal@online.no Subject: Re: Confrontation Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:09:43 That seems to be a sound attitude. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Your site has given me a lot to think about. And not only concerning scientology. It has highlighted the question of where to draw the line between a free choice of beliefs and indoctrination. Perhaps too easily I have accepted (although not believed in) the teachings of the world religions, simply because they have existed for thousands of years. Whether or not tradition should give legitimacy, I don't know. I can only hope to grow old and wise.. [SNIP] Wish you the best, Jimmy Svensson

From: heldal@online.no To: "Jimmy Svensson" <jimmysv@kth.se> Subject: Re: Confrontation Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:03 Jimmy, What is your thoughts on me adding out conversation to my site? I would of course if you wanted remove your e-mail address and name. [SNIP] Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund # home.online.no/~heldal # www.xenu.net Phone: +47 88 00 66 66 # Address: Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If anyone can show me, and prove to me, that I am wrong in thought or deed, I will gladly change. I seek the truth, which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm. --------------------------------------------------[Marcus Aurelius]--------

From: "Jimmy Svensson" <jimmysv@kth.se> To: heldal@online.no Subject: Re: Confrontation Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:00 No problem Andreas. You are free to display my name and e-mail. The more addresses available to the mentally unstable, the less bother for each individual, one could hope. I fully support your cause. /Jimmy

""Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

- Lord Byron

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