**Biased Journalism** V2no18 The Jackson Story
[26 Sep 1996]

A report by by Shelley Thomson.

Main Index A.R.S. Web Summary Ex-Scientologists Speak

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From: sthomson@netcom.com (shelley thomson)
Subject: **Biased Journalism** V2no18 The Jackson Story
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     **Biased Journalism** : a net magazine designed to compensate for 
     the shortcomings of the professional news media.          

     Copyright 1996 Shelley Thomson; all rights reserved.  

     Mail, articles and comment may be directed to .  
     Netiquette will be observed with all communication, except for the
     following:  harassing or threatening mail will be posted to the
     net immediately.        

**Biased Journalism**  Volume 2, issue 18      September 25, 1996.  
Contents:  A Knock On The Door:  The story of Alex and Ariane
           Jackson.  Introduction; Interview with Alex and
           Ariane; Visits by OSA and Alex's Conclusions;
           the Police Report; the Negotiation transcript;
           A Message to the Net.
Read at your own risk.  This is **Biased Journalism**!

1.  A Knock On The Door

        In September on ars Ariane began her story this way:

        "My name is Ariane Jackson and I intend to share some of the
information I have concerning the cult known as Scientology.  This
information covers the experiences of myself and some of my friends
and relatives during many years.  Some of this information is
supported by very complete, original documentation.

       "I was involved in Scientology for 17 years and I attained the
highest available level, called "New OT8, Truth Revealed". I was also
trained as an "auditor" to "Class 6" and I have studied the
"technology" of "Class 12". I was a staff member at Flag Service
Organization, Inc. in Clearwater, Florida.  My husband [Alex] was
involved for 20 years, attained "Clear", was trained as an auditor and
was also on staff. My ex-husband [Albert] was involved for 14 years,
attained "OT7, Cause over Life", gave his fortune of several million
dollars to Scientology and died at the age of 59, within days of being
audited at Flag!

       "In Dec, 1995 my husband and I approached the "church" of
Scientology and requested that steps be taken to repair the damage we
had experienced as a result of our involvement.  We met with a
representative from Flag and specified the damage as clearly as we
could... [They received the cold shoulder.  Brian Anderson, Church of
Scientology, Flag Service Organization, replied accusing them of
blackmail and an attempt to extort funds.  Independently the church
contacted the Procureur General of the State of Geneva requesting
a police investigation for blackmail and extortion; this went to
a hearing, and was denied; the church was required to pay the
Jacksons' costs.]

        "We received a third response during a live TV broadcast in
Paris when I was interviewed and described some of my experiences in
the cult.  The Scientology representative stated that I had made an
offer to withdraw from the show if they paid me 17 million dollars.
This I had never done.  I have filed a suit for defamation."

Ariane goes on to describe what she plans to reveal:
        "1. The destructive effects on myself, on my personality, on
my behaviour and on my life of receiving Scientology levels including
OT8, auditor training, "ethics", and being subjected to the level of
control exercised by Scientology staff on other staff and public.

        "2. The various methods used to persuade my ex-husband to pay
money.  These included daylong interviews by groups of salesmen,
"investment opportunities", donations to translate a book, donations
to "protect Scientology", etc., etc. Two of the "investment
opportunities" where he loaned almost half a million dollars in 1989
to a "patron" and a "patron meritorious" of the International
Association of Scientologists"(IAS) turned out to be very bad
"investments"....My ex-husband tried for MORE THAN FOUR YEARS to get
them to pay what they owed but failed and actually died in the
attempt.  Their failure to repay him added to the fact he had given
so much of his money to Scientology ruined him financially. The
stress arising from his bad financial position aggravated a heart
condition for which he could not afford proper medical care and
which he had been persuaded Scientology would resolve. This illness
killed him before he could recover the money owed to him.

       "The "church" of Scientology was fully aware of this
situation and was actually claiming to be administering "justice" in
the affair, since my ex-husband was prohibited, by Scientology policy,
from taking ANY legal action. At the time of his death Darling and
Rhyner owed him around 650,000 dollars!! This is the "result" obtained
by the cult's business and ethics "technology". Darling raised his
status in the cult from "patron with honors" to patron meritorious
shortly after my ex-husband "invested" in his company. This step is
achieved by paying IAS around 150,000 dollars..." 

        "3. The effects of Scientology on my life as a wife and
mother, including two divorces, a husband (to whom I was married
before the ex-husband already mentioned) who was persuaded by auditing
that he was Jesus Christ reincarnated and could perform miracles but
could not keep a job to support our three young children.  How I
allowed my children to be taken from me.

        "My husband and I, during the period of our involvement, had a
total of 4 divorces and 5 marriages with 6 children involved.  To
prove this problem is not confined to just my husband and I, a review
of the marital experiences of all my ex-husbands and his ex-wives
gives totals as follows:- for 6 Scientologists, 9 divorces, 11
marriages and 13 children with broken homes.  Of these 6 people only
3 are currently married; my husband and myself are two of them.  Only
two mariages have survived and one of them is mine.  (I have just
heard that my 16 year old daughter, who is at the cult's center in
East Grinstead, England, is MARRIED!) This is the result of the
cult's "technology" for resolving marital problems..."
Albert Jaquier ultimately wrote to both David Miscavige and Guillaume
Lesevre [Executive Director International] pleading for assistance in
collecting his money from the Scientologists who had borrowed it.  He
asked Lesevre for a refund of the money his major debtor had donated
to the church to earn "Patron Meritorious" status.  Nothing happened.

One of his many faxes to Scientologist Jody Darling was finally
answered as follows by Robert Eakin:

"Mr Jaquier
Quit being a victim.  You will be paid when there is money available
to pay you. Right now all monies are invested towards production that
will result in funds to pay you-- no matter how much time and paper
you waste this way it will not result in getting paid any earlier.
Your entheta comm is not OK and you have been deadfiled (Scientologese
meaning any communication received from Albert would be immediately
filed away, not shown to anyone and not answered.  It is from a
policy used by Scientology orgs to deal with critical mail they
receive).....I do not pass this comm on to Jody nor do I give him
your repetitious.......(illegible)." (end of quote)

On March 2 1994 the Deputy Chaplain for Courts wrote admitting that
Darling's loan had been arranged by an IAS salesman named Hans Peter

Ariane published the last series of entries from Albert's diary.  It
is a wrenchingly sad chronicle of his last struggle against poverty
and illness.  As his business failed, due to the unpaid loans, his
health declined.  He was unable to afford medical care for the
illness which claimed his life, and which he had once believed that
Scientology could cure.

After many difficulties with the church in Europe Alex and Ariane
and Michael, Ariane's nine-year-old son by Albert, arrived in the
United States.  They were found by OSA with shocking

2.  Interview with ariane and Alex Johnson  -  9/16/96

[We will talk with both Ariane and Alex Jackson.  We begin with
 Ariane, who is AJ, below.  Ariane speaks excellent English with
 a musical French accent.  Alex, whom we shall meet later, has a
 Scottish burr.]

bj:  I gather you've had some interaction with OSA.  Did this happen
     because you posted your story to the internet?

AJ:  Yes, I think it happened because I posted OT VIII to the

     [actually Ariane posted a description of OT VIII from her own
     memory, not the church document.]

     Because they are very worried, they have a lot of attention on OT
     VIII because I think it was the first time the new OT VIII was
     made public.

bj:  so you think it was the OT VIII and not the story of your

AJ:  Yes, I think it was that too but they have a lot of attention
     on the confidential material.

     I am sure the story of my ex-husband has a lot of importance too
     because I don't think they want that public, you know.  It is not
     nice for the church.

bj:  well, what makes you think this OT VIII is correct?

AJ:  Because I did it.  I did it in '88.  So I know what I have
     written is right.

bj:  what kind of results did you get?

AJ:  Nothing really.  Incredible disappointment.  Because there is
     a lot of hype in the church around OT VIII.  Like 'we have
     abilities, we have a lot of skill,' and I had nothing.  I came
     back, I was sick, I was in bad shape, I had a headache, I had
     absolutely not what was promised to me.

bj:  and did you tell anyone in the church that you were unhappy about
     your results?  

AJ:  No because if you tell that to somebody you have to back to do
     other action or to do ethics.  And I had absolutely no desire to
     do anything else.

bj:  did you leave the church at some point?

aj:  I didn't [leave] until 1993.  I did some courses, but no I didn't
     speak at all about my disappointment.

bj:  what is causing you to speak out now?

AJ:  In 1993 [my husband and I took a withdrawal] from the
     church and we began to think about that.  We read the book of
     Corydon [Bare Faced Messiah] and A Piece of Blue Sky  [by Jon
     Atack].  It [the church] was a lot of lie.  The reality was
     totally different than what they showed to us.  And I had a lot
     of [ethics actions] and duress with them.  I couldn't see my son
     during seven months because they show my ex-husband that I was
     somebody ugly, or somebody dangerous for my son.  I had a lot of
     problems with them in fact.  I was under duress very often.

bj:  what happened when you finally left the church, and what made
     you do that?  And how did you leave?  Did you tell them you were
     leaving, or were you declared, or what?

AJ:  When I decided to leave the church I had my three older children
     who were working in the church.  So I decided "I don't want to do
     anything, I don't want to speak about anything because I want to
     stay in a relationship with my children."  And it was in November
     of 1995 I went to Switzerland to be a witness for my friend who
     was an ex-scientologist, and the fact [that] I go as a witness
     makes my decision public.

bj:  in a court trial against the church?

AJ:  Yes.

bj:  did your friend want his money back, or what was the situation?

AJ:  No, he doesn't want his money back but he had a lot of problems
     with the church.  In fact he was very disappointed and he had the
     problem with his throat--he's a musician--and he said to let him
     go by a medical doctor.  They do processes on him [instead] and
     it doesn't resolve his problem so he decides to leave the church.
     He was OT VII, he was very high.  And I did a witness because I
     know him since a long time and I know him, he's a friend.

bj:  how many years were you in the church?

AJ:  Seventeen years.  I began in '76 and left in '93.

bj:  did it cost you a lot of money?

AJ:  Yes.  I did a calculation with my ex-husband.  It was $47,000.  

bj:  often people pay more, or so I understand.

AJ:  Yes.  My ex-husband paid around five million dollars.  But not
     just for courses and other things, but he gave a lot of
     donations.  [and the bad loans -ed.]

bj:  well, what caused you to put OT VIII on the internet?  

AJ:  Because I saw the old OT VIII which was on internet was not
     correct.  And [I don't want for other people to go as far as
     this and not be aware of what the level is about].  It is really
     to make people aware of the lies.

bj:  when you thought about posting it to the internet, was this
     a scary thought for you?  What did you think the church would do?

AJ:  yes, it was a scary thought.  I know that I will receive
     harassment.  Because I know the church doesn't want that known
     and believed, but for me, I have to inform other people that
     these charges, all that is wrong and is false.  If someone goes
     in scientology and pay a lot of money, certainly at the end he
     will be disappointed.  He will have debts or a lot of problems.
     This why I decided to post OT VIII.

bj:  when you were sick after you finished OT VIII, what happened to

AJ:  I had a very bad headache.  I had fever, I had a cold.  And I was
     so ashamed, you know, to be sick because when you finish OT VIII
     you should be able to undo any sickness.  So I hide from other
     people from the church because for me I couldn't understand why
     I am sick.  Even a little cold is not normal.

bj:  [sympathetically] how long did this sickness last?

AJ:  One week.  But very often after I get headache, and cold or
     fever.  Very bad headache.  But I didn't say anything about it
     because I wanted no more heartache.

bj:  do you usually have bad headaches, or was this the first time?

AJ:  No I had these kind of very bad headache after some of my OT
     levels, like OT V, OT VII  I was sick.  After OT VIII I had this
     bad headache and bronchopneumonia.  I will not say it is because
     of OT VIII, but for me I couldn't understand why I am sick when I
     have done this level.

bj:  you felt ashamed.

aj:  Exactly.  

bj:  so you posted OT VIII and then what happened?  You waited for
     the roof to fall in?

AJ:  Yes.  Really I didn't think it will be as fast as that.

bj:  what happened?

AJ:  I think two days after we posted OT VIII they found us.  They
     arrive and-

bj:  how do you think you were found?

AJ:  I have no idea.  Because we just arrived from Switzerland three
     weeks ago.  And nobody knew where we were living and our phone
     number.  It is possible they followed me.  I have no idea.

bj:  So what happened on the day that you knew they had found you?
     How did you know?

AJ:  because they arrived at the door.

bj:  who?

AJ:  Three people from OSA.  It was around eleven o'clock [in the

bj:  a bright sunny day?

AJ:  [amused] Yes, a bright sunny day.  Like we have in Florida.

bj:  and did see them coming?

AJ:  No.  I heard the knock at the door and I saw these two women and
     a man.  And they said "we are with the church, don't close the
     door."  And they were in civil [casual clothes].

bj:  did they look well dressed?

AJ:  Yes.  The women had pants and the guy had pants with a shirt.
     But very nicely dressed.  Very clean.
     They said "we are from the church.  Don't close the door."

     And I was so surprised because I never thought it would be the
     church of scientology.  They just said "the church."  I thought
     maybe it is another church, like a Baptist church.  So I said
     "I want to ask my husband," and I closed the door.  I asked Alex
     to come, and he opened it, and they told him they were the church
     of scientology.

     And Alex closed the door and they spoke through the door.  They
     asked Alex to speak to them, because they had a few questions to
     ask him.  [Ariane talks to Alex]

     They said they wanted to speak with us because they just wanted
     to ask a few questions, it will be not long.  And as they were
     speaking through the door we go to our bedroom and Alex opens
     the window.  And we begin by speaking through the window.  

     They asked about the post we did on Internet about confidential
     work.  And they said you know, it is trade secret and copyright.
     And things like that.  And Alex said "tell us what you want.
     But we will not answer to any questions."  So they begin by
     speaking about trade secret[s] and copyright[s].  They said
     they don't want to use a lawyer.  They would like to do a normal
     speech with us to handle the situation.  They don't want to use
     a lawyer if they don't have to use a lawyer.  And they go on
     a little bit like that.
bj:  yes, I see.   It sounds like Alex is pretty much on top of the 
     situation.  What is his background?

AJ:  Yes, he's on top because he speaks better English than me.  And
     he has more strength.  Me, I am more scared about them.

bj:  Has Alex been in the church before?

AJ:  Yes, for twenty years.  He left at the same time as I did.

     He began in Scotland.  But he went less far in the upper levels.
     He went as clear, and I went way up.
[now Alex Jackson takes up the story.  He is AL, below]

bj:  The church people found you and you were talking with them
     through the bedroom window.

AL:  I said "We are not answering any questions.  We simply want you
     to say your piece and then go.  So they spoke about how they had
     a legal responsibility to safeguard their trade secrets and they
     had to show their lawyers who were putting pressure on them to
     demonstrate to the lawyers that they were taking effective action
     to protect copyrighted trade secret material.  They didn't want
     to resort to legal action because nobody won except the lawyers.
     It was expensive for them and expensive for us.  And they
     described the gory details of how a lawsuit would basically
     destroy our lives.  
bj:  well, let's get to those gory details.  What did she say?

AL:  Well, she said at one point, "you want a life.  You have
     children."  She looked in Ariane's direction.  You don't want to
     leave [them with nothing].  Use all your money" and she goes on
     and on.  Because when you go in the court system you're on
     the conveyor belt and just, whoa, and do you know what it's
     like?  And they said, 'it's like a war.'  It's 'terrible,
     terrible, terrible.'

     That's been the tack all the way through in all the meetings.
     With any pretext they'll start on stories about Dennis Erlich,
     about Grady Ward, Arnie Lerma, about what it's like for these
     people.  They paint a picture that they don't have a life
     anymore because they decided to make a legal thing against the
     church of scientology, they just don't have a life anymore.
     It's finished for them.  

     I shut them up because they just kept going on about it.   

bj:  What did they want from you?

AL:  They wanted an agreement that we wouldn't divulge any more
     confidential materials such as OT VIII and the Running Program,
     that we had divulged.  And they didn't mention a release, they
     just kept saying that we have to ensure that nothing else, no
     more of our trade secrets are made public, go on the Internet.

bj:  did they ever show you the document they wanted you to sign?

AL:  Not the first day.  The second day they produced it.

bj:  So the first day, how long did the interaction last?  

AL:  An hour.  It is difficult [to judge], we were so wrapped up.
     Ariane reckoned that it was more than an hour.

bj:  at the end of that hour how did you feel?

AL:  Ohhh.  Stressed out. 'How did they find us?  What are we going to
     do?  Are we in legal trouble?'  [and so on]  'What will we do?
     I think we handled it well, but I don't know.  Maybe we said
     something [we shouldn't have], you know?'

     The fact [is] that we didn't answer any questions, or, we
     certainly didn't give them any agreement.  Toward the end they
     were pushing for an agreement, they said well,--I had the
     impression they had to go back with something-- they said, well,
     we need your assurances.  Are you going to discuss this with us,
     or are you going to continue to post stuff, or can we resolve
     this, is it going to become a legal matter?  And we just said,
     we're not making any agreement.  

bj:  Did they say they'd come back the next day?

AL:  Well, they wanted to go wait in the car for a half hour, and then
     we give them a decision.  They said 'well, how long is it going to
     take you to decide what you are going to do here?'  I said "we're
     slow.  We have a thing about decisions.  We're not too fast on
     decisions."  And they got angry.  They wanted that decision, they
     wanted a promise, they wanted to take something back with them.
     They were unhappy.

     At the end it was getting repetitive.  They were trying to get
     something.  And at the end I just said you are not getting any
     answers, you are not going to get any promises, you are not going
     to get any agreements from us.  Do you have anything else to say
     that you have not previously said?  If not, please go.

     They realized they were not getting anything.  So they left. They
     were unhappy.

bj:  I see.  Now what did you do after they left?

AL:  We discussed it.  How did they find us?  We patted ourselves on the
     back.  We obviously handled it good.  What do we do now?

bj:  do you think anyone stayed to watch your place?  Were there any
     watchers outside that you saw?

AL:  No.  

bj:  Did you worry about that?

AL:  At the time I don't think so.

bj:  Well, did they come back the next day?

AL:  They came back the next day, yep.  It was after lunch.  The same
     three.  I can give you two of their names.  The woman who was the
     chief spokesman, her name is Jacqueline Kevenaar.  She's from
     Holland.  She said she was from CSI but later I said, "Are you
     OSA?" and she said "Yes."  But then later she changed it back to
     CSI.  So officially they claim to be CSI.  

     The guy, his name is Edward Parkin.  The third, her name is Joan.  

BJ:  What were their faces like?  

AL:  Oh, full of warmth.  And friendly and understanding.  Very very
     nice.  And when we started talking through the window they were
     saying 'oh, you've had bad handling.  We would like you to know
     that we realize that this situation has not been handled well.
     Your concerns should have been addressed before.  That was an
     error on our part."  and blah, blah...  

     Because we had a meeting in Geneva with someone from Flag in
     December 1995.  When we told them what we considered the damages
     that we received as a result of being involved.  And after that
     we received a complaint in Geneva that we had attempted blackmail
     and extortion.  We won it, but they appealed it twice.
     Eventually they had no more appeals to go.  So I mentioned this
     to them the first day and the guy said "yes, but it was dropped!"
     as though this were a good thing for the church of scientology.

     And I said "well, so we had your reply."  And they said "well,
     that was done by the church in Zurich and it was actually
     done without our permission.  And it shouldn't have been done.
     It was a bad thing, it was a bad idea.  We didn't agree with that.
     They shouldn't have done it."  blah, blah, blah...

     The first time they were relieved they could speak to us and they
     were nice.  [they said we had] bad handling.  We could have said
     L. Ron Hubbard [untranslatable] and they would have said "you're
     so right, it's true".   You know, that kind of thing?

bj:  How old were these people?

AL:  Fortyish, late thirties.

bj:  Did the women wear any makeup?

AL:  Yes, they were wearing makeup.  Not a lot, a little bit.  They
     [the women] both said they had been in scientology more than 20
     years.  The chief spokesman  was a tall, slim blonde, kind of
     sandy blonde.  The other woman was shorter, longer hair, less
     pleasant, more hard looking.  They guy is a little bit, kind of,
     goofy.  But I think it's an act.  

     There was another visit later the same day.

     We were eating dinner.  We heard the knock on the door.  I
     didn't answer the door; I just went straight to the window.  And
     she had the Jody Darling post.  It's the second post we put on.
     It's about this guy Jody Darling.  He's high up in the church,
     he's public.  And he borrowed $200,000 from Ariane's ex-husband
     but he didn't pay it back.

     She had a printout.  She was outside the window waving this thing
     at me.  And she was angry.  She said "Look, this is the kind of
     thing that we can handle.  I have the authority to do something
     about this.  I could have handled this.  This is what I want to
     handle.  Right now you are eating" -I was chewing- "but we'll be
     back tomorrow and we'll discuss this.  And we'll handle it."
     This was the blonde, Jacqueline.

bj:  So on the second day they showed up after lunch.

AL:  Right.  The first thing, they started discussing the money thing
     with [Ariane's] ex-husband and Jody Darling.  She [Jacqueline]
     wanted some more information about that because she said "we can
     assist you, we can resolve it with Jody Darling, by finding him,
     getting him to Clearwater.  We'll take care of everything."

     They were shouting about this money, and Ariane said "I don't
     like the way this discussion involves me."  She noticed the way
     the neighbors were starting to look, so she said "why don't we go
     somewhere?"  So we went to Denny's.

     We arrived and it was very nice.  It was relaxed, it was
     friendly.  Jacqueline had a pad.  She was very businesslike.
     She was asking questions about the estate of Albert, Ariane's
     ex-husband and what was happening.  And she actually knew that it
     was stuck in probate here in Clearwater.  She knew that, she was
     fishing to find out what we were doing.  Because--the executor
     in charge of this estate--she wanted to know if we were working
     with him to do any recovery on these debts.  

     She was pretending.   She said 'I need the information so we
     can work with you to do this, to solve this'  but she was
     actually trying to get information, to find out if we were
     working with the executor, she wanted to know if I had a lawyer,

     When we were in Switzerland we had this guy representing us
     that they absolutely hated, and she wanted to know if we were
     still working with him.  We're not, and I told her that.  We
     probably told her more than we should have.  We fell for the
     story that she wanted to help us with this estate thing, but
     later we thought that she was trying to find out what danger
     we would present legally, you know.

bj:  How long did the conversation last?

AL:  In Denny's?  It was over an hour.

bj:  You just had coffee?  Or did you have food?

AL:  It was right after lunch.  We just had some coffee.  They had a
     bagel and a muffin or something.

bj:  Did she ask you to sign anything?

AL:  That was when she produced the release.  

bj:  Oh, really.  Did you keep a copy of it?

AL:  They refused to give us a copy.  I asked for a copy, they said
     "no, you can't get a copy."  

bj:  They wanted you to sign it and they wouldn't give you a copy?

AL:  No.

bj:  Well, what did it say?

AL:  Well, the first paragraph, I didn't even read it because it was a 
     list of people and churches and parts of the church that we were
     waiving any and all claims against, past, present, future, known,
     unknown, uh, whatever.

     Ariane had a version in French which was actually different
     from my version.  It was a totally different version.  [In] my
     version, after waiving all claims, there was a little bit in the
     top paragraph that said, I don't know how it was worded, but it
     mentioned that we had violated their copyright and in exchange
     for them not taking action on that, we were signing this release.
     It waived all our claims.  And then it said "I promise not to
     discuss or speak about anything I have experienced in scientology
     including experiences on staff and other information that is not
     widely known," and then went on to say anything confidential,
     anything blah, blah, unless I am subpoenaed.  If I am subpoenaed
     I promise I will immediately notify them.  At the end, I affirm
     that I am not under the effect of drugs, alcohol, bla, bla, bla.

bj:  Did you sign it?

AL:  (emphatically) No.  It also said, 'for each and every
     infringement I promise to pay $10,000.  

bj:  Was there any type of time limit on this contract?

AL:  No.  I mean it was past, present, future.  No limit.

     Ariane's had some extra on it.  She was not to speak to her 
     family, her children.  And they couldn't speak about it
     [scientology].  She could not divulge any of her experiences to
     them and they could not divulge any of her experiences to anyone

bj:  So the woman showed you these things.  And then what happened?

AL:  I started shaking my head as I was reading it.  And when I 
     finished it I said "can I have a copy?"  "No."  So I just gave it 
     back to her.  "Do you have a problem with it?" she said.  "Look,
     if there's a part--you don't like this one?  Anything you have a
     problem with, we can take it off.  If you want to write one
     yourself, you can write one yourself.  We can work something

bj:  Well, that sounds pretty reasonable.  What did you say?

AL:  [Laughing]  I said "we're not signing anything."

bj:  And she said?

AL:  I think she went back on, "we have to protect our
     confidentiality.  There has been a breach already, you have
     breached your agreement, you have violated our trade secrets and
     our lawyers are putting pressure on us, are demanding that we
     take action, that we get something equivalent to a court
     judgment, a restraint so that there will not be any further
     quoting or publishing of our secret church scriptures."

     We just held our position.  "We are not signing anything."
     And she said, well is there a point you have a problem with?
     And she actually scored one out, she took her pen and scored one

     I didn't want to have a discussion with her.  It sort of became
     a standoff.  One of them said "you need to talk to your lawyer."
     Because she knew we didn't have a lawyer.

bj:  Now were all three people present at this meeting, or just this
     one woman?  

AL:  All three.

bj:  And you didn't want to sign anything without legal advice.

AL:  Right.

bj:  And what was their response?

AL:  "Go talk to your lawyer.  And we'll meet again tomorrow."

bj:  And then?

AL:  And then we left on good terms.  It was very nice.  Everyone was
     smiling at everyone.  We felt we were making progress.

     We had a meeting the next day.

bj:  Where did you meet?

AL:  Well, the next day I had received some advice.   [someone]
     suggested not meeting with them or else taping the meeting.  

[Alex and Ariane discussed how to tape the meeting.  They
 decided against surreptitious taping as being underhanded and
 'playing their game.'  "We decided to open the door and shove the
 microphone in their faces," Alex said.  And that is what they did.]

     I opened the door and I said "do you mind if we tape it?"  They
     went white, and they said "No, sure, go right ahead."  And I said
     "we can't go to Denny's, I'm connected to the stereo.  One of you
     can come in.  You can come in [to the blonde] but we don't want
     three of you in here."  

     She said "well, can Ed come?  Because he knows about legal things."
     I said, "no, you come yourself and we tape it, or nothing."   So
     she was in agreement, she wanted to tape it because I was
     taping it.  But his tape recorder wouldn't work.

bj:  So he had a tape recorder with him?

AL:  Oh, yeah.  

bj:  Do you think he had used it before, maybe to tape things you

AL:  No, because it was like one of these tiny ones.  And it was in
     his briefcase, which was probably too far away to pick up

bj:  Ok.  So he was just using it right then only it wouldn't work 

AL:  Right.  I don't know if he just said that or not.  But then he
     went off to get batteries for his tape recorder and he came back
     about ten minutes later.  At that point she didn't want to come in

Al:  "Well, why don't you stay on the doorstep?  We'll have a
     meeting on the doorstep."   But she didn't want to do that
     because of the neighbors.  So I had a discussion with Ariane and
     we decided to allow the two of them in.  So the two of them came in.  

     They produced a general release again.  And they were pushing,
     pushing, pushing, and pushing.  And then there were the horror
     stories about Arnie, about Grady Ward, about what it's like to
     engage them in litigation.

[On the tape we hear Alex opening the door and saying hello, do you
 mind if we tape it?  Not at all, the scientologists reply, sounding
 nervous.  Alex calmly presents his demands.  He has described
 Jacqueline as upbeat, but she has a hard voice.  The emotional
 subtext of this meeting is tense and unfriendly.]

[Alex begins with the date, September 13, 1996 and his address.
 He asks the scientologists to identify themselves.  Jacqueline
 gives her name and states that she represents the Church of
 Scientology International.  Edward gives his name and states
 that he also represents the c of s Int.  "I am not a lawyer.
 We are civilians.  We represent our church, and we would like
 to speak to you and your wife to amicably resolve what, based
 on our conversation today and yesterday, is some kind of a

bj:  So how long did the meeting last?

AL:  Almost an hour and a half. 

bj:  What ended it?

Al:  Well, they spoke about the release and they wanted it signed.  I 
     said this is a general guide, this is a shut-up about all of our
     experiences.  She said no, no, you don't understand.  It's just
     for your experiences on staff and the confidential materials.  So
     I actually read to her one of the paragraphs that specifically
     said "I promise not to say anything about my experiences in 
     scientology including staff."  And I read this to her two or three
     times, and she kept saying 'well, you interpret it means anything
     but it's really just on staff.'  

     It was becoming silly.  I looked at the guy and he was
     smiling.  And I said "he can't keep a straight face."  He was
     nodding and saying "this is general, this is general" so I 
     dropped it.  

     They did the confidential, all that stuff.  And then she
     was ready to leave, and they stand up to leave, and I said
     "wait a minute.  Whoa, whoa.  What about the state of our 
     [concerns]?  What about over a million dollars that is owed
     to this estate by a scientologist?"  Between the two meetings
     we had [posted] the diary of Albert.  Now with interest [the
     debt] is over a million dollars.

bj:  You are talking about the scientologists who owe money?

AL:  Yes.  And I'm talking about Darling who borrowed the money
     from Albert, and shortly after he paid the $150,000 to IAS.

bJ:  Is that all on the tape?

AL:  Yes.  

bj:  Well, let's move out to how that meeting ended.  

AL:  It was friendly.  There was laughing and joking.  Just
     before the end the guy said something strange.  He said "it
     is difficult to get people to do something that is requested
     by two people who are guilty of suppressive acts, who by
     church tenets are guilty of suppressive acts, which are the
     absolute worst--(Alex can't remember the exact words)
     actions anyone could do against the church."  I didn't
     realize he was referring to *us* as the people who were doing 
     the worst possible acts against the church.  

     That was just before the end.  And it kind of became
     heavy.  But the meeting finished.  They wanted to come by
     the next day, which would be Saturday, but we said that we
     have a friend all weekend.  There will not be a school.  We
     will not discuss this in front of him [Michael]; we don't
     have anybody to take care of him.  

     They said "oh, we can come and Joan can take him to
     the pool and play with him, [!] maybe we can all go to the

     No, it will be Monday before we can have another
     meeting, [Alex said].    They said "well, we'll come back 
     tomorrow.  We'll just check.  And if we can, we can ask you 
     some questions or have a re-discussion."  We said ok, fine. 
     And on Saturday we took off at lunchtime for the beach to
     make sure we weren't there.  They came back Saturday
     evening around 8.  I answered the door.  It was her and the

     She said "I just have some questions about Albert's
     estate."  And I said "no, I refuse to discuss this in 
     front of the child."

     I think they are using that [the estate] as a hook
     because they think that is the thing we want to talk about.
     They think we want money from them,  and so 'if we talk
     about that they'll talk to us'.  She said "just a couple
     of questions."  I said no, it will have to be Monday,
     sorry, goodnight.  

     We decided Saturday that we are finished with the
     meetings.  We have the tape, and there is nothing more we
     have to gain.

bj:  What do you want to do now?

Al:  Put the ball in their court.  We don't think they have
     a valid legal action.  Although that's never stopped them
     before.  I mean, they can start harassing us with legal suits
     that have no validity.  But they have a problem because
     they run the risk of OT VIII, if they want to do a suit
     against us they have to prove that Ariane infringed their
     trade secrets or their copyrights.  They run the risk of it
     being discussed in the court.  So I think that they are in a
     sticky position.  

     Their first attempt was, 'maybe we will get these
     suckers to sign something.  Scare them, and get them to
     sign something.'   If that doesn't work they'll probably
     get together with their lawyer 'what can we do?' 

bj:  Have you noticed anything else?  People lurking outside
     the house, or being followed or anything?

Al:  Nope.  Yesterday Ariane's car, the little door for the
     fuel cap was open.  I felt 'aw, they put sugar in the gas,'
     so I drained some gas off to check.  We are sort of paranoid,
     you know?  [He describes some other precautions he takes to
     preserve their privacy.]

     Last week when they were here every day--Wednesday,
     Thursday, Friday--we were just wrapped up in it.  That's all
     we talked about.  That's all we thought about.  We couldn't
     sleep.  We were just stressed out.  

bj:  What would you like to have happen right now?

Al:  A normal life.  We came here to try and have a normal life.
     We felt that we had to do something, that we couldn't just go
     off and drop scientology, go into a new life without saying
     something.  It wasn't revenge.  Because we've had three
     years of going through the original suicidal depression.  

     I don't know if you know about that, but I think it's common
     [when people leave the church].  Because you're hyped up on all
     this hope.  You know that every problem in your life will be
     resolved by scientology.  That is a promise.  Then you read a
     book and a month later all that hope is gone.  You have a life
     that has been stopped for twenty years or something.  And
     your development and normal maturity hasn't occurred for
     twenty years.  And you're confronted by, you're middle
     aged, you are confronted by a life that is destroyed, and
     no money.  All these wierd ideas about people and how
     they're all wogs and stupid, and filled with BTs and 
     clusters, and crazy,  And you now have to confront this
     without the scientology crutch.  

     And you also have this idea that 'a body is just a body.  It is
     something that you use sixty years and discard.  And this is
     turning around in your head and you're saying 'this life is
     basically finished.'  I'm talking personally.  I just had the
     idea that I should just scrap this and go be a baby again, you
     know?  I mean, you look at your life and-  it's like coming off
     of drugs, I imagine.  I don't know, I've never experienced that,
     but I imagine it is like that.  In alcoholism, everything is ugly
     and you've got to confront that.  And you don't want to.  And you
     don't have anything to use to confront it with. 

bj:  Well, what do you want to do with your life now?

Al:  Get some kind of professional qualification, get some kind of way
     to make money other than driving a truck, which is what I've been

bj:  Do you need help with that?  Do you have any type
     of support?  

Al:  Actually we managed to borrow some money when we were in
     Switzerland from different people.  So that was why we came here.
     To study, and to do some stuff.  We'd like to be able to continue
     that without fear and harassment and legal actions, and having
     to spend all the money on a lawyer.  Depends on what they do.  If
     they give us notice of a legal action we need a lawyer, they need
     a retainer, and then... we just didn't think about this before we
     made the posts.  

     We didn't feel that we could just go and drop it and forget it.  

bj:  How do you feel now?  Are you worried about the church
     doing other things?

AL:  Yes.  Our viewpoint is, they have to do something.  They
     can't allow us to be-  we have some very damaging information
     on the money, Ariane's ex-husband, some of Ariane's experiences
     with her children and friends and acquaintances that were
     blown, OT VIIIs that were sick, problem... so we would like to
     be able to expose all this shit.  But I don't think that they
     can allow that to happen.

bj:  They can sue you for copyright infringement, but I don't
     think they can stop you in any legal way from publishing your

AL:  Ariane's ex-husband kept incredible files on all this financial
     craziness.  Fraud, loans...ah, it's a mess.  It's terrible, what
     they do to you to get money from you.  And the money always ends
     up in the same place.  It always ends up in the church.  You have
     these guys doing all this craziness and getting their cuts and
     their commissions, but they have to be putting it in the church.

     The rich guys that come to Clearwater, and these vultures sitting
     waiting--it's ugly.  And they come in and take these guys, they
     offer these "investments" but they're not investments.  They're
     called investments, but the money is actually going to the church
     of scientology.

bj:  Is there anything you would like to say to the people
     on the internet who are reading this?

Al:  [thinks for a minute]  Yes.  My personal opinion is
     that scientology has within it the seeds of its own destruction.
     I don't know when it will happen, but it will happen.  Because
     Hubbard, when he was alive, he changed it.  He had to change
     it to get new gimmicks and new stuff all the time.  And he had
     to explain why it didn't work, make a discovery about why
     it didn't work.  And since he died they keep changing it, they
     keep discovering his notes that someone had stolen and blah,
     blah..  So they keep having to change it to say well, the reason
     it didn't work was because, and then they'll fix that.  A year or
     two later, 'well, we've made another discovery,' and so despite
     that they cannot change what he wrote, and he wrote some 
     crazy stuff, it will come back on them.

     Twenty, thirty years after the guy's dead they cannot still be
     finding his notes!

     They are going to be stuck in the trap of what he wrote.
     And this is what he wrote.  His purification rundown cannot be
     changed as medical knowledge progresses.  In twenty years it
     will be so obvious that the purification rundown is just
     nonsense.  And then they will do research on the E-meter and they
     will find that it doesn't work, Etc, etc.  Science will cut
     something out.  It will just become antiquated because
     they can't change. It's not science.  It's supposed to be
     science.  It isn't science.  It's faith.  It's lies and 
     it's going to stagnate.  

bj:  how long have you and Ariane been together?

Al:  Since 1990.  

bj:  Do you have any children?

Al:  No.  Well, we have Michael.  [son of Ariane and Albert]  He's
     nine years old now.  

bj:  How's Michael holding up under this?

Al:  Very well.  He's, his story is a crazy story.  Because when
     Albert and Ariane separated in 1990 she was told by the ethics
     officer to give custody of Michael to Albert.  Then a few months
     later Albert was persuaded that she was suppressive and bad, and
     so he would not allow her any contact with Michael for seven
     months.  Which made Michael crazy.  And then four years later he
     lost Albert.  You see, he had lost the stability of Ariane and
     he became stuck to Albert.  And then he lost Albert.  The guy
     didn't know what was up for a while.  

bj:  Terribly hard.

Al:  Nightmares, hyperactive, and scared, you know.  If he doesn't
     know where Ariane is he freaks.  

     He asks what's happening and we try to explain it to him in a way
     that doesn't scare him, that doesn't just feed him a line and
     treat him like a child.  Because he resents that.  

     He found his dad when his dad died.  By the time his dad died he
     stayed with his dad through the week and he came with us on the
     weekend.  And his dad died Saturday night in the night.  We took
     Michael back on the Sunday evening.  Michael went into
     the apartment and his dad was laying on the bed.  Michael went
     over to him and his dad was cold.  That was when he realized
     there was something wrong.


3.  OSA on Candid Camera:  notes by the Jacksons      

        We received our first visit from the cult's representatives on
Wed Sep 11. Ariane answered and, when she saw who it was, shut the door
in their faces. They stood outside the door, three of them, for about
10 minutes, pleading with us to speak to them. I took their photos;
they smiled.  They refused to go away.

        We decided to let them say their piece, so they could go away
since we knew they are not allowed to return without a "product".  We
spoke to them through a window, and asked them what they wanted to say.
They were unbelievably NICE, full of "ARC", warm.  The chief spokesman
was a blond who identified herself as Jaqueline Kevenaar, from OSA
(she also said she was from CSI), the other woman did not give her name
(she was later identified as Joan), she was dark-haired, and the third
was a man who gave his name as Edward. They sympathized with us, said
our situation had been handled very badly by previous "church"
members, etc., etc.

        It's a drill.  We were not impressed.  Whatever we said (we
did not say much) they were in total agreement, nodding vehemently, as
if it was the very thought they had.  We got bored with this and
pushed them to get to the point.  They said, still very nicely, that
our posts on OT8 (they admitted it was OT8) and the Running Program
(more confirmation) were in violation of the agreements we had signed
when we were given access to the data.  They were referring to
"non-discosure bonds" which are supposed to be signed before someone
is allowed to see anything "confidential", and [which] state that
he/she promises to pay $100,000 (or $1,000,000, or another amount
depending on how "hot" the data is) if he/she divulges or discusses
any of the data.  Not only is the legal validity of these bonds
questionable but they get lost and they forget to make people sign
them sometimes.

        Meanwhile, back at the window, which we had now opened so
they did not have to shout, they said they wanted to resolve the
conflict between us and the cult without resorting to lawyers, because
"nobody benefits but the lawyers", and it would be much better for
everybody concerned if we could discuss it.....(bla, bla, bla).  They
spent a great deal of time describing how gruesome it would be for us
if we refused to talk to them and forced them to resort to legal
action.  Jaqueline said to Ariane, " I am a mom too. You
have children, you want to get on with your life, you don't want

        Jacqueline assured us that she has the power to totally
resolve our situation, because she is from CSI and not Flag.  She
said their only concern was that we had "violated" our signed
agreements and divulged their "sacred church scriptures" and that
was against the law and they had an obligation to protect their
religion.  She said they had no desire to prevent us from speaking
about our experiences and if we wanted to say "I worked 48 hrs
straight in the galley" we can say that.   All they wanted was
to ensure that no more confidential data appeared on the Net.

        They pushed for something from us, an agreement, a promise,
anything, and it became repetitive.  We said we had to think about it;
they said "for how long?  we'll wait in the car a half hour". I said
"we are slow, we have a thing about decisions, it comes from our
ethics experiences".  The dark-haired one got angry, said "why don't
we just acknowledge the past and handle what is here right now".

        We reiterated that we were not answering any questions or
making any agreements or promises.  They continued to push and try to
find some way to make us more amenable to being manipulated by them.
They referred to Ariane's statement about being uncertain that it was
the correct decision to post OT8, and tried to work on her uncertainty.
Didn't work. They tried to make us more relaxed using a technique
described by Hubbard where the exact reason for someone's anger
or annoyance or upset is supposedly located and then indicated to the
person.  Didn't work.  Of course, no matter how nice they are, we know
they think we are Suppressive Persons and Scientology won't work on us
for that reason.

        An interesting point came up when Jaquelin was assuring us
how familiar she was with our situation. I joked that she had probably
read our pc folders (folders containing all the supposedly
"confidential", intimate details of our lives that we had revealed in
auditing).  She admitted that she had but in a later visit denied that
she had but admitted that Joan had.  SO OSA IS STILL GOING THROUGH PC
FOLDERS. Under the circumstances, there is no pretext for them going
through our pc folders, we are SP's and ineligible for auditing.  The
only possible reason would be to find data they can use to manipulate,
embarass or intimidate us.

        Eventually we had to tell them to go away because it was
obvious they would stay until we did so.  They left their phone number
which is the # for OSA Legal, (813) 461 3052.


        The second visit was very brief and Joan was not there.
Jaquelin waved a printout of our post on Jody Darling and Ariane's
ex-husband, Albert Jaquier.  She appeared to be angry, and was
red-eyed.  She said that it (the situation with Darling) was something
she could resolve, she had the authority to resolve, etc.  She said
she did not have time but would return the next day.  Edward did not
say much, if anything, but nodded in confirmation of whatever she
said. They left without being told to.


        By the time they arrived, all three, for the third visit,
around 2pm, Thursday Sept 12, we had posted Albert's diary.  They
still managed to paste smiles on.  They used the hook of Albert's
estate to persuade us to talk to them.  When they started shouting
details through the window we suggested we adjourn to a nearby
Denny's and they were more than happy.

        At Denny's, Jaqueline was all business with pen and notepad
ready.  Under the pretext of ascertaining what the situation was with
the estate so they could "help", they pumped us to find out what we
had done and were doing to recover the money owed by Scientologists
to the estate (around $1,200,000).  Who was the executor?  Who was
representing us?  Etc., etc.

         When we had told them all they wanted to know and they had
given us the impression they were sincere about "helping" us get the
money owed by Scientologists to Albert's estate and therefore to
Ariane's son, they brought up the subject of our posting OT8 and the
Running Program.  They produced copies of a document titled "General
Release", copies of which they refused to give us.  Ariane's copy was
in French and was also differently worded.

        This release began with our waiving any and all claims, past,
present and future, known and unknown, against all these individuals
and entities that seemed to cover everyone connected with Scientology.
It also made us promise never to speak about "anything" related to our
experiences or knowledge of Scientology.  We also had to promise to
notify them if we were subpoenaed and had to speak.  It also included
that we would pay them $10,000 for each and every infringement of it.
Ariane's also stopped her speaking to her family members and them
speaking to others.

        We refused to sign, at which point Jaqueline said that they
could take off anything we did not like and she began drawing lines
through the parts she thought we did not like.  We reiterated that we
would not sign.  They continued to push and tried to interpret it for
us and persuade us that it did not say what it obviously said.  It was
not well done on their part, and was almost pathetically inept.

        During this meeting we also had a kind of theological
discussion, if that is actually possible with a Scientology fanatic.
Edward asked us what we were thinking when we posted the confidential
materials, and why we did it.  I tried to explain that I felt I had
been deceived by Hubbard concerning his "research" and his claimed
life accomplishments and I did not want others to have similar
experiences and lose many years of their lives before discovering the
truth about Scientology and Hubbard.  I mentioned that the data from
Gerry Armstrong's trial had shown me the truth about Hubbard.

        The women obviously did not know what I was talking about.
Edward jumped in and said first that Armstrong had stolen Hubbard's
papers and altered them, then he said he didn't alter them, then he
forgot what he was trying to say and Jaqueline had to jump in and
rescue Edward.  Both of the women asserted that they had been in
Scientology over 20 years and they had heard everything negative there
was to hear and not once had anyone ever been able to get them to
question Scientology.  They were proud of that.

        I thought about pointing out that that statement told me more
about their inability to question than it told me about Scientology,
but I had the impression they would not understand.  Joan was going
on at length about how many people had benefitted from Scientology
and, just because we had not, we should not try to spoil it for them.
She said she personally was very happy and had been lucky enough to
benefit greatly from Scientology and had not had negative experiences.

        I argued that it was not Hubbard's view that she had
benefitted because of luck, it was his view that if someone had bad
experiences, or was "unlucky", it was because that person had done
bad things in this or an earlier lifetime.  I even referenced the
issues covering it, but she did not know what I was talking about.
The discussion just petered out.

        I mentioned the spamming of ARS, and had to explain what
that was.  They looked at each other and said, "Who is doing that?"
They said they did not get to see ARS but someone gave them copies of
posts that they needed to have.

        At the end of the meeting, it was jovial, everyone was
smiling.  We were going to check on some points on the estate of
Albert.  They were apparently happy with the progress they had made,
they had got us out of our appartment, into Denny's, relaxed about
talking to them, they had introduced the release and started to
handle our disagreements.  We separated "on good terms".


        The third visit took place on Sept 13, between 3 and 4:30pm,
in our apartment. The participants were Jaquelin, Edward and
ourselves.  [The session was taped.  A transcript made by **Biased
Journalism** follows this account.]

        At the end of the third visit we told them we would not be
able to meet with them again until the following Monday.  They were
unwilling to accept that and said they would come by and "just check"
to see if they could talk to us.

        We made sure we were not at home all afternoon Saturday.


        The fourth visit was also very brief. Jaquelin and Edward
came around 8:30pm Sat 14 Sept and she said she wanted to ask some
questions about Albert's estate.  I told them to come back on Monday,
but they persisted and I had to close the door in their faces.  They


        On Wed 18 Sept we sent a fax to Brian Anderson, OSA Flag
telling him we did not want any more visits or any harassment from
representatives of any of the cult's organizations.  We also mailed a
copy of the fax the same day.

        That same afternoon, around 5:30, Jaquelin and Edward came
back and told me they had a very good offer to make to Michael,
Ariane's son who has a claim on the $1.2 million owed to his
father's estate by Scientologists.  They wanted a meeting and I agreed
to have one the following day because if I hadn't they would have
stayed until I did.  They left.  We made sure we were not at home at
the agreed time for the meeting the next day.


        On the evening of Thursday Sept 19 around 8:30 Edward came
alone and said he had come alone and wanted to discuss it.  I told him
to put it in writing; he persisted with the same line, and I closed
the door in his face.  He left:  Jaqueline was driving the car.

        Ten minutes later he returned with a note written on Fort
Harrison memo paper that said

                                              Thursday 7:45pm

              We invite you at Denny's in 30 minutes from now.
        It was unsigned.  Needless to say we did not go to Denny's.


        On Friday morning, Sep 20, we were returning to our apartment
after jogging and they were waiting outside.  Ariane was so scared
she went and hid in the laundry room and did not enter the apartment.
When they saw me coming towards the appartment, they came and
followed me the last 50 yards or so and were yelling at me such things
as "Where are you getting your advice, Alex?  From Armstrong, is it
Armstrong?  Or Vaughn Young who just spent 2 days in deposition.  Or
Dennis Erlich?  You are getting bad advice.  You are making a bad
decision.  What are you scared of, Alex, what is it, why are you so
frightened?  We just want to discuss it.."etc., etc.

        They were still doing this when Ariane appeared from the
laundry room and they started on her with the same kind of verbal
attacks and harassment.  She was really scared.  We got into the
apartment and locked the door and immediately called 911 and told them
what was happening and gave them the details.  When I was on the phone
I could here them yelling at us outside the door.  The 911 dispatcher
said a deputy was on his way and asked for the tag # of their vehicle
but I could not see it through the window, because they never park
directly in front of the appartment.

        When I hung up, I went out with pen and paper to get the tag #
and they followed me from the door of the appartment to their car
yelling at me that I was not scaring them, they were not scared and I
could not scare them. I ignored them and went back into the apartment.

        They loitered ouside the appartment and continued to yell
through the door at us.

        The deputy arrived shortly after and spoke to them briefly
then came to see us.  I showed him a copy of the letter I had sent
telling them to stay away.  He asked if we had been involved in the
cult and were we no longer involved.  We said yes.  He explained to me
that he could have me give them a warning in front of him telling them
to stay away and, if they came back after that, they can be arrested.

        I went with him and he told them he did not know what was 
going on between them and us but I did not want them visiting.
Jaqueline tried to be smart and snapped that it was "civil", so
he told her the place for it was in court.  He explained to them the
"trespass warning" he had explained to me and had me tell them to stay

        As I did that, they all looked at me and the silly smiles and
"ARC" were totally wiped off their faces. They looked at me like I
was something Xenu had vomited up.  They tried to interrupt me and the
deputy shut them up.

        I returned to the appartment and, as I left, I heard him
demand to see their ID's.  Another deputy had arrived by this time and
the deputies took down their names etc.

        Later, the deputies came to see us and got our names etc., and
told us to phone immediately if they returned.

        That was the last visit.


        The most useful conclusion I can come to after observing, and
experiencing, this activity is that these individuals are _infantile_.
Their behaviour is similar to that of children.  This is supported
by traits such as their earnestness about trivia, selfishness,
naivete, devotion to a cult, lack of realism, lack of critical
ability, and behaviour more appropriate to a children's TV show than
real life.  When they collide with reality which does not subscribe
to their science fiction delusion, you can see their obvious
inadequacies and their inability to deal with something that has
been described to them in a distorted way.

        For example, there is no word in Scientology for a critic of
Scientology who is a "good guy", so they cannot have that concept.
Now they have to come and talk to Ariane and me and we are not
frothing at the mouth, and we are not ugly, and we appear to be
sincere.  But they "know" that cannot be true so they have to
conclude that we are pretending, and we actually are evil.  As a
result they are trying to deal with situations different from the
actual situations, and are suffering from delusion to that degree.

        Yes, they are dangerous in the same way that juvenile
delinquents are dangerous, and they are used and manipulated by
others and they can be very, very cruel. They are, in fact,
very cold emotionally.

        I think the most effective,and true, statement that can be
made TO these people would be "GROW UP AND GO GET A REAL JOB!"

                                                    Alex Jackson.
                                      rom sthomson@netcom.com 

4.  The Police Report

        **Biased Journalism** obtained a copy of the police report.
It is dated 9/20/96.  The report was made at 11:35; the unit was
dispatched at 11:36 and had completed the call by 12:03.  The
description is listed as TRESPASS WARNING.

        Alex Jackson is listed as the Complainant.  Subject 2
(Suspect) is Edward W. Parkin, a 37 year old white male.  Subject
3 (Suspect) is Jacquelin Kevenarr, [note: this spelling is
different than the one obtained by Alex, which was Jacqueline
Kevenaar.] a 46 year old white female.  Subject 4 (Suspect) is
Joan Ellen, a 45 year old white female.  All three Suspects gave
the same address and telephone number:  6331 Hollywood Blvd.,
Suite 1200, Los Angeles, CA 90028; (213) 960-3500.   We called
the number and determined that this is the Church of Scientology

        The Sheriff wrote:  "I arrived at the complainant's
 residence.  I made contact with Alex.  ALex stated he resigned
 from the Church of Scientology earlier in the month.  Alex stated
 that three members from the church came to his door and started
 harassing him.  Alex stated he asked them to leave, but to no

        "In my presence, Alex told the three members of the church
 he did not want them back on his property.  I explained to the
 church members that they have a Trespass Warning against them.
 They understood if they came back they could be subject to
 arrest.  The church members then left the property."


5.  Negotiating with OSA

OSA interview tape
September 13, 1996
Alex & Ariane

Alex:   Hi, guys.  Do you mind if I tape the conversation?

J,Ed:   Not at all.  Do you mind if we do?

Alex:   Sure.  Are you all ready?

Ed:     no

[Alex:  we can't go to Dennys, obviously.  We don't want to
discuss it on the balcony.  We also don't want all three of
you in our apartment.  So we'd be willing to discuss it with
you (to Jacqueline) alone and on tape.  Do you agree with that?

J:      Can Ed be there was well?  Because he knows a lot about
        legal and stuff.

Alex:   No.

J:      ok.

[Ed gets out his tape recorder but it doesn't work.  While he
fiddles with it:]
Jacqueline:  is there a reason why you don't want all of us in here?

Alex:   It's just our preference.

[Jacqueline explains that Ed's tape recorder is dead and asks where
they could find batteries.  Alex describes a hardware store, and
they leave to get batteries.  Tape resumes after their return:]

Alex:   this is September 13, 1996 [gives his address] and I am Alex
        Jackson.  Do you want to identify yourself?
J:      Jacqueline Kevinaar.

Alex:   representing?

J:      I am representing the Church of Scientology International.

Ed:     My name is Edward Parkin and I also represent the Church of
        Scientology International.  I am not a lawyer and neither is
        anyone-unless you are- none of us are.  We are civilians.  We
        represent our church and we would like to speak to you and
        your wife to amicably resolve what I think, based on our
        conversation yesterday, the day before, is some kind of a

Alex:   I would also like to record that my wife, Ariane Jackson, is

J:      So, I thought we met yesterday, we went over the whole

Alex:   So you don't want to come in alone.

J:      I'd feel better about the full cycle because this is a meeting
        where we want to settle things.   We want to sort things out.
        We want to come to an agreement.  We want to resolve the
        problem created by you guys putting confidential church sacred
        scriptures on the internet.  You are bound by confidentiality
        agreements not to do so.  Does [?] till your death.  So we
        have the church's concern, which is, the official position is,
        that we have the obligation, we are obliged by law to sue in
        order to protect our rights to this material.  If we don't
        take any action whatsoever, we sit by and we don't do
        anything,  then we might lose our rights because we don't
        protect it.  We're not diligently protecting our rights to
        the upper level materials.  Which we have to do.  That is our
        trust.  That is the law.  This is what the law requires of the
        owner of upper level or sacred materials or trade secrets.

        Ok.  So we are obliged to sue.  However we have come here in
        total peace.  That is something that must be believed because
        that is the truth.  We come in all fairness to see if we can
        work out an agreement where you agree not to breach those
        upper level, trade secrets on the Internet and in that case,
        that will be equal to a judgment to us, just laying out the
        position here, it would be equal to a judgment to us, so we
        are protected as the owner of the materials.  And that is
        really the bottom line on that.

        Now, if we go ahead and sue and do all of these things
        we also wanted to tell you, in all fairness because I think
        you should be aware of that, and because of our obligation we
        have to sue, it will be expensive, obviously.  There will be
        lawyers involved.  There will be all sorts of things.  The
        financial hardship on ourselves in order to have to do this
        and on you is I think worse than if we can sit down and simply
        agree that you won't breach the agreements you signed.  That
        is why I have come.  Within that parameter I think it's only
        fair that the two of us can talk to the two of you.  I'd feel
        better about it and I'm sure you don't want me to feel bad.
        I don't want you to feel bad.  I'd feel better about it.  I
        think it's only fair.

Ed:     You put us at a disadvantage.  It ceases to become an
        even playing field at that point.  If that's the way you want
        to do it, you're putting us at a disadvantage and then I think
        you're going to be creating problems for yourself.  Because we
        have requested that it is both of these representatives of the
        Church of Scientology Interational who are here to, as it were,
        represent our interests.  And you and your wife together to
        represent your interests.

        If you're putting one of these representatives at a
        disadvantage by not having the other, then it's not an even
        playing field and whatever may or may not get worked out or agreed
        to at that point, it then becomes inequitable.

[Ed and Jacqueline are skilled negotiators.  A good negotiator haggles
 over everything:  the room, who is present, whether they sit or
 stand, etc.  The objective is to get the other party involved in
 the process.]

Al:     in that case we'll conduct a meeting here.  [Alex means
        the doorstep]

[They natter about it, but the scientologists don't want to talk
 on the doorstep.  They'd rather go to Denny's, but Alex's tape
 recorder is in his stereo.  He can't move it.  Ed offers to make
 a tape and give Alex a copy, but Alex dismisses the idea.]
Al:     right now we have an event playing field.  We don't have
        particularly perfect conditions.

Ed:     no we have very bad conditions

J:      Just because of the neighbors

Ed:     One of your neighbors tried to follow us when we left.  The
        one in a Lincoln, gray, a gray Lincoln Continental.

[Alex and Ariane close the door to discuss the matter.]

Alex:  come on in.

[nattering about arrangements]

J:      I'm just curious.  Did anything happen?
Alex:   No, we just discussed it.
J:      I thought maybe you got upset about something.

Alex:   No.

J:      [refers to yesterday's shouting match about money]
        We basically explained what the whole purpose of the whole
        thing is.  Obviously a lot of cycles have to be sorted out
        and we are more than prepared to do that.  However-

Alex:   Could you be specific?

J:      Specifically like the thing we went over for instance
        yesterday with Albert's estate.  There are real problems.
        I'm sure we can assist sorting that out.

Al:     Are you referring to Jody Darling, a debtor to Albert's estate
        and a Scientologist, Hans Gaspar Rhymer [J's beeper goes on]
        another Scientology debtor to Albert's estate, and other-

J:      Like the document you gave me?  You gave me a document which
        listed out the names of debtors.

Alex:   Scientologists owing a total of just under one million dollars
        [?] eight and a half years ago.

Ed:     I don't remember the exact figure and I'm not sure I have the
        document here, but that's what we went over.

J:      We are prepared and we are willing to sort that out.  To do
        whatever the church can do to sort that out.  And basically
        continued.  Many actions the church has already done to sort
        this matter out, but didn't complete the cycle.  That's all I
        wanted to say.

Ed:     Right.  Exactly.  Now the things is, a communication was not
        delivered yesterday.  And the bottom line as we see it is that
        there are two ways that this can go.  The two ways are, we
        either work it out and resolve it or we go the other route,
        which is in the law courts.

J:      And this is really, what you have to understand about this-

Alex:   We have several different matters to resolve here.  It would
        be to everyone's advantage and for the record I want to have it
        clarified that we specify whether we're talking about -

Ed:     I thought I did when we introduced ourselves and I put a
        little preamble, I stated -

Alex:   The confidential materials.  We also, we will be discussing
        something that is our concern, which is the money owed to
        Ariane's son by Scientology that we have discussed.

Ed:     w-w-w-w  Ariane's son did not loan Scientologists any money.
        Albert Jaquier loaned Scientologists, as I understand, the
        documents that you presented and so forth, you know, money to
        individual Scientologists.

Alex:  The money was not repaid and is currently owed to the estate of
        Albert Jaquier and Ariane's son is an inheritor in that

J:      That's what we went over already.  You gave us the
        documentation.  That is a known fact.   I don't think that's
        in question.  So we have two matters now.  One matter is our
        claim for our protection in terms of confidentiality, the
        other claim is Albert's estate.  And I think those are the two
        things we want to sort out.

        Now, I think, and that's our position, that the matter of
        posting confidential materials and coming to an agreement not
        to do that or not to breach any further agreements or whatever
        is something that we have an extraordinary amount of attention
        on.  As you can understand.  So far anybody who breached our
        right in terms of doing that, we either went to see him, some
        of them we went to see just like we did with you, to give him
        the opportunity to settle and have an agreement with us that
        they won't do that, knowing well that based on earlier signed
        agreements it is not ok to do it, in fact it is a breach of
        the contract.  Others didn't want to do that, so we saw them
        in court.  And we litigated because, and this is something
        I want to make completely and totally clear, so it is fully
        understood.  It's not like we want, we're desperate for a
        court case.  No, we have to.  We are obliged to do this.
        Because we have to protect the right to something which we
        hold confidential.  If we said, well, this part of what we
        studied cannot be revealed then we also have the obligation
        to make sure that doesn't happen.  When it happens we have to
        come to judgments that enjoin people from doing that.  Like
        injunctions, for instance.

        Like somebody like Dennis Erlich has an injunction.  He
        cannot do that.  If he does it he is contempt of court and
        that's a jail sentence in this country.  Do you know what I

Alex:   [irked]  We understand your legal obligation to diligently
        take action to protect your copyrights and trade secrets.

J:      The other thing I think we should inform, which is only fair,
        just in my view, so we could file a suit and litigate.  I'll
        let you guys cope with that.  I tell you, that is not a nice
        situation to be in.

Alex:   We know, because we've just had a suit from your church.  And
        we know how that is.

Ed:     The only thing is, one, it was in Switzerland, it's a
        completely different thing mainly because the holders of the
        trade secrets and copyrights are based here in the U.S. and
        those actions that have been brought on the basis of the
        copyright ownership and the trade secrets are brought by the
        churches housed in the U.S. and there are numerous precedents.
        Numerous precedents.  You are going from the early 1980's
        until the present time.  I don't know if you are aware of
        them, but we have Grady Ward, for example, the Internet
        character.  There is a preliminary injunction on him that
        prohibits any type of activity, or Keith Henson is another.
        I have - this is why I wanted to meet you because I am aware
        of these [?] I am intimately aware of them.  And I also know
        the effects that it [litigation] creates on people when for
        whatever reason they have violated our trade secrets and
        they wound up in a situation where the suit was filed and it
        basically goes on a conveyor belt in a law court.  Hugely

J:      I mean, we could tell you this one guy, what was his name,
        Arnie Lerma-  it's just that you need to know these things.
        You're not American citizens-

[She is wrong.  Both Ariane and Alex are American citizens.]

Ed:     But our lawyers say, 'you'd better come back with something,
        otherwise we have to.'

Al:     Ok. I would like to just make a fact on record that since
        your initial visit to us two days ago we have not posted
        anything, I think you will agree, we have not posted any of
        your confidential scriptures.

Ed:     To our knowledge nothing has been posted that has
        violated confidentiality.  Absolutely.

J:      That's correct, and I acknowledge that.

Alex:   So we are not dealing with a situation where we are insistent
        upon or continuing to post materials subsequent to being
        apprized of your position.

J:      [insistently] But if you would tell us-

Ed:     If say this [negotiation] broke down now, and tonight you         
        decided ok, well we're going to stick OT VII-

Alex:   I understand your responsibility.

J:      [brightly insistent]  And since there was already a breach,
        obviously we just say 'well we talked to these people, and
        they look honest, and I don't think they will do it.'  Our
        lawyers are going to say "well, you're nuts.  How do you
        know?"  Just face it, that's reality.  You have to have it in
        writing, you have to have something that is equal to a
        judgment.  In fact moreso because there was already an earlier
        breach.  So the respect for contracts was at that moment in
        time, no matter what the considerations, what the
        circumstances were, was not there in order to restrain the
        posting from happening.  So what will make this restrain the
        posting from happening?  You know what I mean?  Sure, there's
        always an element of risk there.  Of course.  And our
        interests, in the church interest, you want to make that as
        small as possible.  That's the bottom line.

        That is the situation we need to resolve first.  First
        and foremost.  Because that risk is there.  There is another
        thing you have to know, there is a certain time period in
        which you act.  When the infringement -  takes place, there's
        a clock that starts ticking and the sooner you act the better
        it is for the plaintiff, obviously.  Now we're in
        negotiations.  We are.  There is a reason you can say that
        clock will slow down a bit because we're talking.   We're
        trying to solve this without having to go to court.  But that
        clock still ticks.  And there is a point in time where we, you
        know, have to make a decision.  I'm telling you the straight
        dope.  I'm here to PR or anything.  Or make it all nicer or,
        well 'there won't be any problem'.  Because I think there will
        be.  And I think you should be informed of that.

Alex:   So within a certain time period we sign or you go legal?

J:      No, there isn't, like, 'ok we give you ten days.'  And if you
        don't sign in ten days- it doesn't work like that.  It works
        that from the moment of the infringement you have to
        diligently pursue making the infringement either invalid, or
        stop it, or prevent it from happening again.  You have to show
        that you have diligently done this and pursued your rights.
        If you sit back, let the time go forward, ...that is not
        diligently pursuing your rights.  So that's why we come here,
        we talk to you, and so on and so forth...

        So that's basically I think the first thing that we should

Alex:   Ok.  Yesterday you asked us both to sign general releases
        which were not confined to confidential material but included
        experiences that we had in scientology outside of what was
        even on confidential or involved in confidential, taking or
        receiving confidential material.  It was a general release
        concerning experiences of any kind.

Ed:     No. No.

J:      Not quite.

Alex:   Do you have a copy?

Ed:     "not generally known."  I remember the paragraph well.  5b, I
        think it was.  Anyway, "not generally known."

Alex:   The point I'm making is that it was not confined to our
        experiences of confidential activities or the release of
        confidential material in public places.

Ed:     Right.

J:      "in a public place," obviously.

Alex:   Why?

Ed:     Because we would like to contain-

J:      I'll tell you why this is.  Because this is while on church
        staff.  It says "I will never post or publish or attempt to
        post or publish anything relating to my experience with,
        knowledge of or information concerning the scientology
        religion or any of the releasees which are the parties in
        this contract, including any information which I obtained
        while on church staff and which is not widely known."

        In other words, by joining staff and signing your covenant
        you agreed that you can be talked to and you can engage in
        activities which are not normally accessible to anybody
        outside.  'I am a staff member.  I am privy to things the
        church is doing, the inner workings, the administration,
        the what-have you, organization inside.'  Which of course a
        public getting a service would not be free to do.  If I go
        and bank with the Bank of America I'm not sitting in their
        board meetings [fweet! interesting choice of metaphor!],
        you know what I mean?

Alex:   May I check this?  [papers rustle]

J:      [brightly determined]  And those are matters that are
        basically covered in the covenant, that you promised not to
        divulge any information which you received as a staff member,
        which you otherwise wouldn't have gotten if you were doing
        the Comm course.

Alwx:   Can I retain a copy of this?

Ed:     [flatly]  No.   Unless you sign it.  In which case, obviously.

Aj:     -because mine is different.  [Ariane's agreement, written in
        French, has different provisions than the one offered to

J:      Because each of you have to make that decision for yourself.

[the Jacksons read.  Nobody says anything for a minute.]

Alex:   This states "I will never post, publish or attempt to post or
        publish anything relating to my experiences with, knowledge of
        or information concerning the scientology religion or any of
        the releasees including any information which I obtained while
        on church staff and which is not widely known."  So therefore
        5b is not limited in any way to just experiences on church
        staff.  It includes experiences on church staff that are not
        widely known, but specifically says "anything relating to my
        experiences with, knowledge of or information concerning the
        scientology religion."

J:      So how to you interpret that?  What do you read in that?

Alex:   Well, the two key words are "anything" and "including."
        Because "anything" means "anything".  It means "anything
        relating to my experiences with, knowledge of or concerning
        the scientology religion or any of the releasees _including_
        any information which I obtained while on staff and which is
        not widely known."  So this "anything" includes this.   But
        it's not limited to this.

J:      Ok, I get it.  So that's how you interpret that clause.  Now
        I have another question.  Is there anything else in this
        release that you have a problem with.

Alex:   Yes.  I-

J:      Any other clauses

Alex:   I don't see the necessity of your requesting, or suggesting,
        or asking us to sign a general release when your stated sole
        concern is the matter of confidential materials.  Which you
        claimed you already have a signed written agreement on our
        part--do you have copies of those, by the way?  Can you share
        them with us?  Do you have them with you?

J:      No.

Alex:   Can you get them for us?

J:      [vaguely]  I guess so.

Alex:   Because we'd like to, we don't remember if we did sign, what
        we signed.

Ed:     [not sounding friendly]  You remember, when you signed, when
        you joined, you were both staff, right?  You remember
        signing a-?

Alex:   I actually don't remember what I signed.  I certainly don't
        remember the details.  And I certainly don't even know if what
        I signed was legally valid.  So-

Ed:     Well, that puts it all into the validity, and this, that and
        the other-  we don't want to go that way.  We don't want to go
        that way.

J:      That's where you go into court-

[scientologists are both talking at once]

Alex:   We also don't want to be scared or frightened into doing 
        something.  Like this general release.  It is unnecessary.
        It is extremely, it is a total gag on our free speech
        concerning the subject that we were involved in for more than
        half of our lives.

J:      Ok, well, just to correct one [?] of things.  Just let me get
        that straight.  Which is that you say 'well, why do I have to
        sign this if you already have it.'  Because we're not dealing
        with the original situation of you having signed the
        agreements and nothing happened.  You have breached the
        contracts.  So we need to settle the breach.  It is a
        different situation, a different circumstance.  There has been
        a breach, so you settle the breach.  We're not settling the
        earlier contracts.  Those are fine.

Ed:     Many settlement agreements, where there was a contract
        originally, and there was some dispute over it, and a
        subsequent settlement which resolves that.  That's very

J:      You resolve the new circumstance.  Ok.  Now if we look at this
        though, it says "general release."

Alex:   Let me ask your minimum requirement on this matter of
        confidentiality?  This is your minimum requirement?  What is
        your minimum requirement?

J:      Something that is equal to a judgment, that will protect our
        rights completely and fully.  That is what our minimal
        requirement will be.  Something that we could get in court.
        However we think we can do it without all the court, and the
        cost, and the lawyers and so on, because we don't want to put
        you up to a lot of expenses.  We really realize it's very

        Arnie Lerma, just up to summary judgment, is the first step
        in the case, paid $950,000.  I mean that's a horrendous
        amount.  It's just the lawyer fees.  And then, now he sits
        with a summary judgment where he has to pay us damages.  Now
        what position is that to be in?

Ed:     He was a staff member and so on, and he came in and out and
        so on and so on, many many times, and he did some
        confidential level, violated his agreements, we sued him--
        because we had to--and the court case, it was a fast track in
        Virginia, and we filed a summary judgment motion.  It was
        upheld and granted.  And we have a judgment in our favor.  We
        have damages awarded us for each of his infringements and he
        has to pay our lawyers' fees.  I know, I was sitting there
        when the Judge ruled.

J:      You know if we go that route it will be so bloody useless,
        because even if you would get Albert's one point two million
        dollars, you don't want to pay that to attorneys.  It's the
        last thing you'd want to do.

Ed:     Any money that you have now or would have in the future gets
        totally blown down the drain.

J:      It's expensive for us.

Alex:   We have no claim on Albert Jaquier's [estate].  Ariane's son
        has a claim on the estate.

[Ed has to change his tape]

Alex:   I just wanted to clarify.  It is Ariane's son who has a claim
        on Albert's estate.

Ed:     Understood.

Alex:   We are not claiming against Albert's estate.

J:      Ok.  All right.  So that is really the things we want to lay
        out.  And then if you get this thing going, if you, like,
        suspend part b here, because you have a problem with that.
        As far as I see it, and understand this thing, it tells you
        to do a few things-
[Alex breaks out laughing, but she plods determinedly on]

        You cannot breach anything that you know is confidential,
        maintaining the confidentiality  [Alex is still laughing.]

Alex:   I cannot listen to you and keep a straight face.

Ed:     I understand.  I know what you are laughing at.

Alex:   You can't keep a straight face [yourself]!

Ed:     Don't interpret what I'm doing!   I understand what you're
        laughing at.

J:      So, what it says is-

Alex:   Jacqueline, we're not signing it and we're not discussing it.
        We're not going to hack it to pieces and then- you understand?

J:      Uh huh.

Alex:   I understand your position and your obligation.  [his Scottish
        burr got the best of us here, but we gather he said something
        to the effect of, we are at an impasse, there is no reason to
        take this topic any further.]

Ed:     Good.  Let me clarify something to make sure I fully
        understand.  Now let us say, this release was directed solely
        to confidential materials.

[Fweet!  It looks like they are suggesting that Alex sign a
 legal contract, enforceable in a court of law, making all the
 the confidentiality agreements he may have signed in the past

Alex:   Well, we'd have to consider it.  I'm not saying anything.

Ed:     I'm not asking you to promise me one thing or the other.  I
        just said I can think with the cycle.  If it was restricted
        solely to the upper level materials and that basically-

J:      [She sees where Ed is going]  But there was a breach, and
        in settlement of the breach we enter into an agreement
        between you and the church that you will not breach on
        confidential, upper level materials; confidential
        information.  Which you know is confidential because you
        signed agreements to that effect.  That's it.

Alex:   That would be acceptable to you?

Ed:     [very controlled:  this is the big moment]  I'm asking if
        it would be acceptable to you.

Alex:   I'm not saying.  But would that be acceptable to you?

J:      I don't know either.

Alex:   We're going to have to have it checked.  We're not signing
        anything without having it checked.

Ed:     It would make our job a lot easier.

Alex:   If we didn't?  I'm sure.  But-

Ed:     [wants Alex to believe that the proposed idea is
        innocuous, so he makes himself a victim]  You don't know
        the pressure that comes to bear with the lawyers pounding
        on the table saying 'you are giving away your rights, what
        the hell are you playing at!'  'Give them away, fine:  we were
        led to believe that you considered your sacred scripture
        sacred and yet, you're letting them-'

Alex:   I understand your problem.

J:      The obligation is there.

Ed:     And we are here to resolve it.

J:      But it's not just, Alex, it's not just our problem.  You're
        involved in that problem.  You realize that.    Our problem
        goes to the extent that we have to go to the motions, get the
        machine rolling, instruct our lawyers, go to the court, get
        the witnesses, the testimony, this, that and the other; and
        you've watched L.A. Law [!!], you know how court cases go.

Alex:   [laughing]  There is a difference between our situation and
        the situation of Dennis Erlich or Arnie Lerma in that right
        now we are not posting.  Right now we are not actively
        posting any confidential materials.  And we have not for two
        days.  We have not subsequent to your first visit.  That is
        the difference.  That is something that you can tell your

J:      I am not sure if that would hold up in a court of law.

Ed:     Lerma posted to ars.   In fact he only posted once but it was
        sent out two times.

J:      Because a breach is a breach.  If you breach once, it's a
        breach.  The difference between a hundred breaches and one
        breach is very small.  A hundred breaches may show a
        continuous, you know- and despite this talking you might go
        back to your computer and post again.  And we talk again, you
        go back to your computer and post again.  That of course
        makes matters worse.

Alex:   Why?  You said we could post anything we wanted-

J:      I'm talking about upper levels-

Alex:   Okay.  You are talking about a hypothetical case.  I thought
        you were talking about Jody Darling and the diary.

J:      So that would make matters worse if you were doing that.
        Obviously you're not doing it.  You say you're not doing it.
        I don't know.  I have to believe you.

[Scamizdat? OSA thinks the Jacksons are Scamizdat?]

Alex:   [indistinct]

J:      Yeah, but what appears on the Internet doesn't always show up
        right away.  It can take days to show up.  It's not like an
        instant-it's not email.  So I have to take your word.  Which
        I'm ready to do.  I mean, I don't think you are sitting here
        lying to me.  You know what I mean.  So.  But you have to
        realize a breach is a breach and to something which is a trade
        secret or a confidential thing it's sort of, because of the
        litigation that has occurred, factually we'd probably have
        been the first ones that ever litigated on these.  These are
        laws that we in fact almost wrote the book on.  Because the
        precedents and the jurisprudence--you know what that word
        means?--exists now on the cases that we have ongoing or have

        And if you look at a big access provider like Netcom, that
        is one of the biggest in the world,  they adopted rules where
        they will screen for any copyright violations and trademark
        violations.  That's unique.  Before our cases Netcom would
        never have thought about doing that.  In fact it wasn't the
        practice at all.  It was 'well, you folks, it's your
        responsibility.'  But it isn't, really.

        They wrote the whole- [Ed breaks in here.  He wants to get
        back to the topic.]

        So these are not minor matters.  We're creating all the law
        and definitely jurisprudence on the whole subject.  So-

Ed:     Add to that our own lawyer.  Our lawyer is _the_ trade secret
        lawyer in the whole country. [presumably he is talking about
        Roger Milgrim]

J:      He wrote the book on the subject.  But besides that-

Ed:     It's not just us here, it really is something.  Do you
        appreciate that?

J:      Since 1950 there's been people that didn't agree with the
        church  of scientology.  1954, the first church started.  But
        even before that.  And they had their say.  And they had their
        things to say about it.  And it may not have been good.  I've
        seen, in my 22  years [in the church] I've seen stuff, you
        know, obviously there   have been people that weren't happy
        and they've tried all sorts of things.  Look at people like
        David Mayo.  That was a battle and a half.

        It's like they weren't happy with what they got out of it.
        Okay.  There's one thing otherwise, there's another thing I
        just wanted to tell you just apart from anything else.  Which
        is that just saying 'okay, it's all the church's fault that
        I am in this position' is factually not honest and not true.
        Because it really isn't the church's fault, you know, like
        whose fault?  Who was in the church?  What has happened?
        What was applied or wasn't applied?

        There are numerous circumstances-  Just like, for instance,
        you cannot hold the Pope in the Vatican responsible for what
        his millions of followers do.

Alex:   We understand that.

J:      So you can talk about bad experiences but even then there is
        enough to say about that too.  Understand, there is enough to
        say about it.  Your side of the story.  There's other sides to
        that type of story.  Other people had their own experiences
        with the same situation as what occurred.  And they have lots
        of things to say too.  It's a game in other words, that okay,
        my viewpoint, your viewpoint, Joe's, Bill's, Fred's, Peter's
        viewpoint; we have all these viewpoints.  What do we achieve
        with it?  I don't think we achieve much.  The church is still
        there.  You know, but we are being thrown to our fates as over
        the years is a lot but we're still there.

        If we would have done one percent of what we are accused of,
        we wouldn't be there.  Not a soul would want to come into the

Alex:   Okay.  That's all right.  That's all right. [wants to move on]

J:      Yeah, we can go over that a little -

Alex:   We need to go get proper legal advice before we enter into an
        agreement.  We understand your position, your requirements,
        your minimum requirement.

Ed:     I just wanted to make sure that we are tracking.

Alex:   This would be your minimum requirement:  a promise on our part
        to not divulge specifically upper level confidential materials
        past XEW [?] - through OT VIII.

J:      Yeah.  Or matters such as the Running Program.  That is not
        something that you can read in HCOB's or you can buy in any 

Alex:   Confidential.

J:      Yes.  That's not stuff you can buy anywhere.  You know it's
        not "Dianetics:  The Modern Science of Mental Health."
        That you can talk about to your heart's content.  It's
        publicly available.

Alex:   So that would be acceptable?  You have to have a verification
        on that, right?

J:      Yeah.  We-

Alex:   For you that would resolve your problem, would be a promise-

Ed:     [edge in his voice]  An immediate promise.

J:      [unwittingly sabotages Ed] Well, you see we have to go back
        about that.  You have to go back about that.  I cannot
        guarantee here or now that that would be the end of all our
        problems.  I cannot guarantee that.  Because I don't know.

Ed:     I'd like you to [garble] totally your own way.  If you want to
        think about some[thing] you can.  It's totally up to you.

Alex:   That will be our discussion of experiences outside of
        confidential material, that you are to discuss.  But the
        matter of your problem that you have discussed concerning the
        upper level material would be possibly resolved to your
        satisfaction when a promise on our part that we would not
        divulge in the future any of the specified materials which
        are primarily technical materials-

Ed:     Yes.

Alex:   Okay.  So that is something.  Because we can't have a copy.

J:      Well, if you will not agree to this then it is useless to even
        talk about it.  But if we can set parameters like you just did
        then I think we can come to an agreement.

Ed:     Because that gets the legal stuff out of here.  Then we can

J:      Then we have something concrete to go with.

Alex:   Okay.  Why don't you guys drop something [tape switch].

[chatter about Michael]

J:      [brightly] Well, I think we're basically done, right?  I mean
        we do this-

Alex:   Your problem, Jacqueline.  But one of our concerns yesterday
        was that our concern was basically blown off, and most of
        the time was spent discussing your concern.  Our concerns
        have not, to our view, been adequately discussed.

J:      I get it.

Alex:   --Or resolved.  Or even a resultion instituted.  Because-
        let me finish-  this, situation with debts owed to the
        estate of Albert, which is currently stuck in probate, from
J:      Is he okay?  [she is talking about Michael.  Ariane has
        been on the telephone.]

Alex:   So the situation with regards to the estate of Albert.
        Albert, it's obvious from what Albert wrote and communicated
        to various individuals in different parts of the church that
        he considered that the money that he had thought he invested
        in the company of Jody Darling was, or was maybe not directly
        but enabled Jody Darling to pay $150,000 to the International
        Association of Scientologists shortly after; and then
        subsequent to that Jody Darling became delinquent on that
        debt and when Jody Darling was arranging that debt, that
        loan, he was sending faxes from the office of the
        International Association of Scientologists in Clearwater.

        Now, Jody Darling currently owes the estate of Albert over
        $300,000.  Do you contest that?

J:      No.  I've seen at least the - [indistinct]

Alex:   Okay.  This is our concern.  You have your concern: this is
        our concern.  Now, yesterday we discussed probate laws and
        it is possible if not probable that Jody Darling doesn't
        have the money to repay this debt.  Right?  Either he
        doesn't have it or he doesn't want to pay it.  He hasn't
        paid it.  He has been delinquent for about four years.
        He was refusing to communicate when he was delinquent.
        So what your suggested solution has been to get Jody
        Darling in Clearwater and to attempt to make Jody Darling
        good upon his debt.  That has to go to the estate and
        that has to be probated, etc., etc.  Now it is true that
        Michael won't actually need it or get it until he is
        eighteen.  But if Jody Darling doesn't have it and he's
        [claiming] bankrupt, then- what I am trying to say is
        that the International Association of Scientologists
        received $150,000 from-

J:      You don't know that.

Alex:   Yes!  His photograph's in Impact [magazine]!

Ed:     I understand that.  I understand that.  I also know that
        Jody Darling borrowed vast quantities of money from
        innumerable, many different people.  I don't know it
        was Albert's-

Alex:   I- that is- you can't follow dollar bills through a bank.
        You see what I'm saying.  But he's a Patron Meritorious
        and listed as such.  Therefore he paid IAS $250,000.
        When he borrowed the money he was a Patron With Honors.
        That's $100,000.   He paid $150,000 shortly after the-
        you understand?

J:      What's the significance there in terms of what he did with
        the money?

Alex:   [trying not to lose his temper]  IAS received money from him.
        He received money from Albert.  He didn't-

Ed:     So you are trying to show a chain of title of the money?

Alex:   He got $200 [thousand] from Albert and at the same time he
        paid $150 [thousand] to IAS.  He arranged it from the IAS

J:      Just one thing you have to explain.  What's the significance
        of where that money went for you?  For you, or for Michael,
        or for the estate?  That's my only question here.

Alex:   Okay.  Let me mention a similar situation.  Edwin Baer also
        borrowed money from Albert.  Edwin Baer got a refund from IAS.
        We have evidence that he got a refund.  That's how he repaid

Ed:     [derisively]  Huhn.

J:      That money went to Albert?

        [everyone talks at once]

Alex:   We can read it because it's in French and then we can
        translate it for the record.  Edwin Baer's letter to
        Albert, stating that he had arranged the refund from IAS-
        just translate it [to Ariane]

Ariane: Okay.  It says "I-

Alex:   This is from Edwin Baer in Switzerland.

Ari:    It says "I work

Alex:   Give the date.  To Albert Jaquier:

Ari:    5 October 94.  "I worked during the [?] week with the DED
        IASA to find a solution for the money which is owed to me,
        that I did not receive yet.  I had to do a CSW asking a part
        of the money I had loaned to an [?] to ask that it be
        reimbursed by IAS.  And he said that it is an irregular

J:      So basically what you are saying is that if Jody is not
        able to pay the money back out of his own pocket IAS
        should be doing that for him.  Is that what you're
        explaining to me?  Or, there is a possiblity for IAS to
        do that?

Alex:   Yes.

J:      I get it.

Alex:   Yes, since they were a beneficiary, not necessarily
        directly, but they benefitted in the time period.  You

J:      Yeah, I do.

Alex:   And we can say well, if Darling had not paid IAS, he would
        have been in a much much better position to have repaid
        the debt to Albert.  I haven't, since by church policy
        Albert was prohibited from taking legal action against Jody
        Darling and his other debtors.  This was by church policy
        [and] resulted in Albert being unable to, and before he
        died, then since he was prohibited from taking legal
        action and the church at that time, and we have evidence
        of this, claimed to be administering justice in the
        affair, and failed to force or ensure that justice was
        done in time, as evidenced by the fact that the money
        was not repaid and Albert died.  So that he couldn't go to
        a lawyer.  He went to his church.  And I think the evidence
        demonstrates that his church failed him.  And handling
        --you told me the first day that December 94, Jody
        Darling was denied services at the church of scientology.
        At that time Albert was dead.

        This situation had been brought to the attention of the
        church.  This is chronologically laid out in the post.  It
        had been brought to the attention of the church several years
        earlier when Albert was still alive.  The church failed.
        They prevented him from seeking legal action.  And they
        failed to provide any substitute justice that was effective
        in time.  Because if Jody Darling had paid when he said he
        would pay, Albert could have paid for and received the
        medical attention he desperately needed to stay alive.

        And we cannot definitely state, but it is a possiblity that
        right now you would be talking to Albert, not us [if Darling
        had paid].

J:      I understand what you're saying.  I understand what you're

Alex:   I am not finished.  Michael Jaquier was seven years old when
        his father died.  He lost his father.  Now you may consider
        that all he needs is a rud session, but he lost his father.
        He loved his father.  Several years before that he had lost
        his mother through the policy of disconnection, for a period
        of seven months.  Michael's story has not yet been
        [indecipherable].  Albert was his stable parent after he
        was disconnected from his mother.  With Albert's death he was
        disconnected from his father.  You understand?

J:      I do.  I hear what you're saying.   I hear what you're saying.

Alex:   And my impression is, I still see Michael sitting sometimes
        and he will be reminded of his father and you can see, he
        looks off a little distance and his eyes mist over and he
        doesn't speak of anything or say anything, but you know
        what is happening with the guy.  You understand?

J:      I hear.

Alex:   Yes, he's recovering.  Yes.  Yes.  The nightmares he has,
        they're not as bad.  You understand?

J:      I hear you.

Alex:   Your church is involved in that, Jacqueline.  Specifically by
        preventing Albert from what was available to
        non-scientologists, which was the courts of law and civil
        action.  He was prohibited from doing that.  He would have
        been declared or susceptible to declaration as an sp if
        he had done that.  So he couldn't do that.

J:      Can I ask a question?

Alex:   Sure.

J:      Because those are like, heavy accusations.  And I don't have
        necessarily a counter-view on that because one of the things
        we are doing is still going through all of the data.  As I
        said, a week ago I didn't know you, a week ago I'd never
        heard of Albert Jaquier.  So we're still going through
        everything.  And we're talking to people and getting _all_
        the data.  We have your story, which you posted.  We have
        what you _claim- is Albert's diary, which is in the post.
        I don't know if that is a literal representation of it.
        But we have files and we're going through this.  So we
        still have to, and you have to grant us a bit of time
        to sort this thing out.  For you this is a cycle that
        has been taking years and years and years.  You are
        intimately familiar with the things that went down.  For

Alex:   Your church was first informed in 1991 when Jody Darling
        was initially delinquent.  And so-

J:      [very reasonable]  I've seen in the files, I've seen
        justice actions, I've seen board of investigations, I've
        seen Chaplain's Courts and about this much correspondence
        about the cycle.  It isn't like, you know, nothing
        happened because I tell you, these files are _thick_.
        On the whole cycle, on whatever went down on that, you

Ed:     Albert.  A lot of letters.

J:      In Albert's case, he sent-

        [all three talk at once]

Ed:     Did he ever do a CSW to file a civil action with IJC?  You
        know, the policy that says, do a CSW-IJC if you don't hear
        back within a certain amount of time?

J:      Fine, it says you have to notify IJC.  It doesn't say you
        can't sue.  You have to notify IJC.

Ed:     That's what I think.  I haven't read the-

J:      Maybe this is something you can read.  We'll bring the
        policy tomorrow.  You can read it.  It's available.

Ed:     Okay.  I haven't seen it in the file, but he may well

J:      It's not, you know, you cannot sue, you cannot sue, you
        cannot sue.  You say the church prohibited him from
        suing.  I only know what the policy says.  This is
        where they talk about that.  I bring that tomorrow
        and show it to you.

        Because that is not something that I saw in the files

Alex:   Are you suggesting Albert should have initiated a civil

J:      No, I was just asking-

Ed:     If he felt that it was the only thing he could do
        then he should have applied that policy letter.  If
        that was the only thing that he felt he could do.
        Maybe he did.  I don't know.  We have-

J:      Did he ever file a complaint?

Alex:   You mean, outside the church?

Ed:     Yes.   That is exactly what I meant.

Alex:   I would have to check.

Ed:     Yeah, I'm not sure either.

J:      So that's the whole, again as I said, this is a cycle
        that you're emotional about.  And I hear you.  I
        understand that.  On the other hand, it is for us a
        fairly new thing that I haven't had on my lines for
        you know, up until a week ago, literally.  So I will
        familiarize myself with a couple of things.  Because
        I know, if I have all the information I know it can
        be resolved.  If I don't have the information there's
        nothing I can do.  You know what I mean?  That is
        literally where I come from.

Alex:   Okay.  Okay.

J:      I know this is a concern of yours.  I know that you have,
        your viewpoint, you know what happened, you have your
        data, there's also, hopefully there's a lot of other data,
        a lot of other people wrote a bunch of things about this.
        Albert's estate is something that I know for sure was
        discussed by a lot of people.  So. We'll just have to
        look at it.

Ed:     Yeah, you don't know what was done to get Edwin Baer
        to pay.   I just found out some of the stuff this morning.
        Yeah, I mean a lot of things.  You know, to make the guy
        take responsibility for, I know because our area of CSI,
        took a lot of cleanup of the guy, make the guy confront
        it, and so on and so on.

        Ah, the thing that I was thinking of is, us doing anything
        while we have this confidentiality thing hanging out
        there is a problem.  It really is a problem.  And the other
        thing is, ah,

Alex:   You're saying you don't want to discuss it?  Until you get-

Ed:     No.

J:      No.

Alex:   Well, you're jumping back on the confidentiality and -

[pause while Ed changes a tape]

J:      Well, let's say this.  We came to talk to you because of your
        posting.  That was the reason why we came.  The posting of
        confidential stuff.  In the course of dealing with the cycle,
        you know, we find out about the whole Albert cycle.  I
        personally was not aware of all that.  And I just have to
        see.  And we find that this is a point where you have a
        lot of attention.  Obviously.

Alex:   Uh, huh.

J:      Good.  So we came here to do a).  You come back to us so we
        find out there's also a b).

Alex:   Yep.

J:      Okay.  Now what we want to do, and I think this, in all
        fairness, we want to resolve this confidentiality thing.
        Because that is definitely a direct immediate risk for
        the church.  Where we have to know.  I'm not excluding,
        we won't talk about Albert's estate.  Absolutely not.
        I said, you have to give us some time to go through
        all the facts.  Which we're doing every day.  And that,
        you know, familiarizing ourselves but also talking to
        people.  You know I told you yesterday, Jody will
        come to Clearwater.  I want to talk to him.  I want to
        know from his mouth what happened.  And I have the
        right to do so, you know what I mean?  Certainly when
        there are these large sums involved, I want to know.
        So we'll have to work with this.

Alex:   [unbelieving chuckle]  I laugh because Albert heard that.
        In fact Albert heard that more times than-

J:      I know.  But I also said something else to you yesterday.
        Surely you remember that.  We have come here with full
        bargaining [power] to sort out [the situation].  And I can
        personally do that.  So.  That's it.

Ed:     You've got to give us a little bit of trust.

Alex:   Okay.  We have voiced our concern and you have voiced your
        concern.  We have to discuss it, we have to think about it.
        [to Ariane]  Your draft, may I see it?

J:      --work out what is the minimal requirement, we'll look at
        it.   And we'll come back, we'll have the same setting if
        you don't mind.  Is it an acceptable setting for you?
        Then we'll just take it from there.  I mean, really this
        is a thing that I don't think will be resolved in ten

Ari:    No.

Alex:   Well, it hasn't been ten minutes.

Ed:     And a resolution is a resolution.

J:      That's another thing that we want, when we walk out of
        here, when we part, it is a completely handled situation.
        A handled cycle.

Alex:   Yeah, but there are two different definitons of handled.

J:      Look, if you were not happy it would not be handled.  If
        you would go up and say, ok-

Ed:     Because you would say something on the Internet tomorrow
        and it would be the same thing-

J:      -'fuck you, go out of my live,' you know if you would say
        that it ain't handled.

Alex:   Ok, let me make a suggestion before we- this general
        release, to try to get us to sign this general release
        is unrealistic.  It's nowhere near a handling.  He knows.
        You know.  Get Real.  Get real.  Do you understand?
        [He is still polite, but the edge is unmistakable.]

Ed:     I do understand.

Alex:   We're not whining victims.  And we're not, you know,
        'you did everything, and look at everything that you
        did,' you understand?

J:      Yep, we do.

Alex:   So, get real.   Because we're real.

J:      Uh, huh.  [reflexively] Good.  

Alex:   [laughing]

Ed:     By the same token, uh, I, you know, we have to force people
        to do things.  Trying to force somebody to do something on
        behalf of somebody who by church tenets, or two people who
        by church tenets, have committed suppressive acts of the
        worst actions conceivable in scientology-

Alex:   Huh?  [puzzled.  He doesn't realize that Ed is referring
        to him and Ariane]

J:      [quickly]  What he probably is saying--I, I'll translate it
        for you.  You asked me to get real and I will, I am.  Also
        there is the other reality of your situation.  You see,
        the knife cuts both ways.  There is the reality of, if you
        choose litigation, if you choose to go that route, be
        real, because, know what you're sticking your foot into.

Alex:   I know.

J:      You know?  So that's what I'm saying.  I don't mind being
        told to be real.  But on the same hand, I want to tell you
        that, do the same thing.  Apply your own words of wisdom
        to yourself, to look at what's there at the end of that
        road.  Because it ain't anything pleasurable for any of
        us.  And that is the reality I'm dealing with and I
        come from.  You understand?

Alex:   Yeah.

J:      And as long as we have those realities I'm sure we can
        sort it out.

Alex:   [laughing helplessly]

Ed:     What?  What?

Alex:   uh, when I said get real I wasn't being a smart ass.  If you
        know, then when you see we're not going to go off happy.

J:      No, I don't-

Alex:   the general release- you see what I'm saying?  Don't waste
        our time, and don't let's start editing it, and stuff like
        that.  Do you see what I'm saying?

Ed:     [silky] You won't see that document again.  

Alex:   All right.  You know, different words with the same sense,
        you know-?

Ed:     I know.  You can read.  You understand what you read.  You
        understand legal sufficient to know what the significance
        of those legal terms are.

Alex:   Right.  Anything that is worth anything, that means
        anything.  Don't tell me [it isn't a general release
        when it is].

J:      That's how I understand it, you don't understand it that
        way.  Fine.  So.  That is the reality of that.

Alex:   You still think it means just staff?

J:      I don't think that it says you cannot talk about any of
        your experiences.

Ed:     This is true.

J:      We do _all the time_ on the Internet.  So how, you know-
        if it would say that you cannot talk about anything
        concerning scientology, then what are our five or six or
        seven or thirty-seven web sites for?

Alex:   [laughing again]

J       [plowing right on] --all the experiences with people, but
        the difference is, they are good and they are happy.  So
        it would be sort of stupid to say, well you can't post
        about scientology anymore.  I mean, that really, I
        mean it's like, there can never be such a thing.

        If you want to talk about scientology you talk about
        scientology.  We expect you to say the truth though,
        because otherwise you enter a whole other realm of
        stuff, which is libel and slander, which is a whole
        different ball game, or inciting to hatred.  If
        you say "I think that church is so bad that I think
        every one of you should now go and bomb the church
        or something," you can incite hatred.  In Florida
        there happens to be a statute that says, a law,
        if you utter words or publish, say something with
        the intention to stir up hatred against somebody
        else, a group or an organization or whatever,
        that's illegal and you're going to jail.  It's a
        criminal offense.  It's called a "hate statute."  A
        hate crime.  You cannot, and that's because of, well
        we're in the United States.  You have multicolored
        people, the Ku Klux Klan.  They're burning churches.
        Right now there's a whole flap going on where six
        hundred churches in the South of this country, you
        know, black churches, have been burned to the ground.
        So, the whole subject of hate crime right now is a
        much discussed thing.  It was on Newsweek this week;
        it's all in there.  You cannot say something that
        will incite an emotion of hatred toward the subject
        you're talking about.  So that's what I'm saying,
        you know.  Within the parameters of free speech
        there's also the criminal code of the United States.
        If I say "I'm going to kill the President of the
        United States" just saying it will lock me up.
        Not even, I don't even have to prove that I intended
        it, didn't intend it or what.  Just uttering these
        words.  And there's no FBI agent that will grant
        you your free speech for saying that.  You know what
        I mean?  So, there is a criminal code.  That's all
        I'm saying.  There is laws.  And within those
        laws you're completely fine.  Overstep the laws and
        you go to jail.  And particularly in this country
        that's a very black and white type of affair.

        So that's what I'm saying.  If you want to post your
        experiences and it isn't libel, it isn't slander and
        it isn't a hate crime, go ahead and do so.

Ed:     I've got a question.  So we're doing this document, we're
        modifying this thing, right?

J:      Yeah.

Alex:   You are going to modify that one?

Ed:     Allow me correct and amend what I earlier said.  Yes, we are
        rewriting from scratch.  What are you guys doing?   It's
        almost like a summary or recap.

Alex:   We are discussing it.  We are getting advice.

Ed:     From whomever you want to get advice from.  Good.  

J:      Okay good.  So, we meet tomorrow?  Same time, same setting?

Ed:     A bit earlier?

        [discussion about Michael]

Alex:   Well, he'll be here over the weekend.  Monday.  We're going
        to have him all weekend.  [He accidentally calls Jacqueline

J:      [joking]  Don't be snide on me.  I'm not snide on you.  

Alex:   [Laughs]

Ed:     Can we give you a call?

[Alex declines to give the number.  Jacqueline pushes for a meeting
 the next day.]

J:      We can work to resolve the situation.  We want to be diligent
        about this.

[discussion about Michael.  Alex does not want the meeting held in
 his presence.]

        I don't know.  Can he play in the pool?  And maybe Joan can
        be with him?  She likes a dip in the pool.  

Alex:   No.  If we can arrange something before Monday we'll call

J:      Well, let me ask you this.  What we can do is, why don't we
        come by tomorrow, say about 2 o'clock and we take it from
        there.  Like, if you can do it, fine.  If you can't, you
        can't.  I may not be in the office.  We're out and about
        too.  So I don't want to miss your call or have somebody
        near the phone or whatever.

Ed:     We'll be involved, we have to interview people-

J:      We'll be here two o'clock tomorrow.

Ed:     If you can't say we'll respect you.

J:      And then you can tell us.  If it's this weather he's playing
        outside.  You know, it wouldn't be a problem if he's in the
        house or watching tv or whatever.  We can take it from
        there.   Okay?  Let's do that.

Ed:     Very good.

Alex:   End of meeting.  Four thirty.  Or close to.


6.  A Statement by Ariane





------------------ The End ---------------------------------------

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