CSI/OSA on tape. Operation Dumb and Dumber?
[01 Oct 1996]

Main Index A.R.S. Web Summary Ex-Scientologists Speak

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:32:46 -0400
From: Ariane&Alex JACKSON <106231.2751@compuserve.com>
Subject: CSI/OSA on tape. Operation Dumb and Dumber?
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The meeting was held in the Jacksons' apartment in Palm Harbor, Florida on
the afternoon of Sept 13, 1996 and was recorded with the consent of all
participants. The individuals are identified as follows:-
JK--Jaqueline Kevenaar, representative of CSI.
EP--Edward Parkin, representative of CSI.
JE--Joan Ellen, representative of CSI.
AL--Alex Jackson.
AR--Ariane Jackson.

AL--Hi, guys. Do you mind if I tape the conversation?
EP--Not at all.
JK--Not at all.
EP--Do you mind if we do?
AL--Sure, go ahead.
AL--Are you already?
AL--You're.....Well. Do you want to start it?
EP--Are we on tape? Are we on tape right now?
EP--Oh. We are.
JE--Well. Let's all go in.
AL--Well. One minute, one minute. Here, we don't want to go to Denny's,
AL--We also don't want to discuss it on the balcony.
AL--We also don't want all 3 of you in our apartment. So, we'd be willing
to discuss it with you alone in our apartment on tape. Are you in agreement
with that?
JK--Fine. Can Ed be there as well?
JK--Because he knows a lot about legal and stuff.
AL--One, you.
JK--OK. So do we have something?
EP--I do. I was actually going to ask you the same thing., but you...eh.
This is the machine. Um, (unintelligible).
JK--Is there a reason why you don't want all of us in there or...
AL--Um, it's just our preference.
EP--What we can do is run out...
JK--And get a battery, Alex.
JK--We think our battery is dead so Ed is going to get another battery. Is
there..there's a place around the corner here somewhere, right?
AL--Eh...what, well, there is a hardware store. They might have some.
EP--Yeah. I missed. I put new ones in the other day, (unintelligible) but
they don't.
AL--Well, do you want to take care of that and, then whenever you...
EP--Back in 10 minutes.
(break in recording)
JK--You know I think...I think...
AL--Let me just record what we are doing here.
EP--At least mine.
AL--So this is September 13th, 1996, we are at (address deleted for
AL--I am Alex Jackson. Do you want to identify yourself?
JK--I am Jaqueline Kevenaar...
JK--I am representing the Church of Scientology, International.
EP--My name is Edward Parkin and I also represent the Church of
Scientology, International. I am not a lawyer.
EP--And neither is anyone unless you are.
EP--We don't know about.
JK--None of us are.
EP--None of us are.
EP--We are civilians, we represent our church.
EP--And we would like to speak to you and your wife to amicably resolve
what I think based on our conversation yesterday...
EP--And the day before is some kind of a problem.
AL--OK. I would also like to record that my wife Ariane Jackson is present.
JK--Good, yeah we don't see her.
EP--Good, we appreciate it. Yeah, she's not here. Where is she?
JK--OK, there you are.
EP--Alright I thought...
JK--Alright, so, I thought, we met yesterday, we went over a whole bunch of
AL--So you want...you don't want to come alone?
JK--I, I'll tell you this...
AL--To the apartment
JK--I'd rather, I'd feel better about the whole cycle because this is a
meeting where we want to settle things, we want to sort things out, we want
to come to an agreement where you are...
JK--Concerning, let's, let me speak.
JK--It's OK. Now, where we want to resolve the problem created by putting
you guys putting confidential church, sacred scriptures on the Internet.
Now you are bound by confidentiality agreements not to do so. Those were
breached and you did. OK, so we have as far as the church is concerned,
which is, you know, the official position, is that we have the obligation,
we are obliged by law to sue in order to protect our rights to those
materials. If we don't take any action whatsoever, if we say fine, OK, you
know, we don't do anything, then we might lose our right because we don't
protect it. We are not diligently protecting our rights to the upper level
materials, which we have to. That is our trust.
JK--That is the law, that is what the law requires of the owner of upper
level or sacred materials or trade secrets,which is what they are. OK. So.
We are obliged to sue. However we have come here in total peace, and that
is something that must be believed because that is the truth. We have come
in all fairness to see if we can work out an agreement where you agree not
to breach those upper level trade secrets on the Internet and in that case,
that would be equal to a judgment to us. I'm now just laying out the
position here. It would be equal to a judgment to us so we are protected as
the owner of the materials. And that is really the bottom line on that.
Now, if we go ahead and sue and do all these things, we also wanted to tell
you, in all fairness, because I think you should be aware of that and
because of our obligation we have to sue, it will be expensive, obviously,
there will be lawyers involved, there will be all sorts of things.
EP--One other thing...
JK--The financial hardship on ourselves in order to have to do this, and on
you is, I think, worse than if we can sit down and simply agree that you
won't breach the agreements you signed. That is why I have come. Now,
within that parameter I think it's only fair if the 2 of us can talk to the
2 of you. I'd feel better about it and I am sure you don't want me to feel
JK--I don't want you to feel bad. I'd feel better about it, I think it's
only fair.
EP--You put us at a disadvantage. It ceases to become an even playing field
at that point.
JK--Sort of the equity.
EP--If that's the way you want to do it, you are putting, you are putting
us at a disadvantage and then I think you are going to be creating problems
for yourself because we have requested...
EP--that it is both of these representatives from the church of
Scientology, International who are here to, as it were, represent our
interests, and you and your wife together to represent your interests.
EP--If you are putting one of these representatives at a disadvantage by
not having the other then it's not an even playing field and, you know,
whatever may or may not get worked out or agreed to at that point, it's, it
then becomes inequitable.
AL--I understand.
EP--It's unfair.
JK--Yeah, so that's why and I don't think that ...
EP--That's the only point.
AL--OK. So in that case we'll, we'll conduct the meeting here. It's not too
EP--I'd rather not.
JK--Well, yeah.
EP-- It's confidential stuff we're talking about. I'd rather at least have
some kind of parameter of confidentiality about it.
JK--Or if you have a portable, the 4 of us do go to Denny's and we sort it
out there. I mean, we don't have to come inside. I have no must have.
EP--I appreciate and respect your privacy.
JK--You know the privacy of your home is the privacy of your home.
JK--And I don't have to come in. If we can talk, I'd rather go to Denny's.
If you have a portable, take it with you.
JK--OK, we'll buy a portable.
EP--Do you have a copy thing because I can give this tape to you, you copy
it onto your own tape and then I keep one and you keep one. That's
perfectly fine with me.
AL--No, I would...
EP--I mean, I won't even take this out of the machine if you have any
uncertainty that ti might get doctored or something like that.
JK--Look or we buy one on the way. There's a Radio Shack right there, we
could buy one, stick a tape in, it's yours, you can record.
EP--The point being even playing field.
AL--OK, right now we have an even playing field. We don't have particularly
perfect conditions.
EP--No, we have very bad conditions.
JK--Yeah, just because of neighbors, because of, you know, standing out
EP--And one of, one of your neighbors happened to follow us we noticed when
we left so... the one in a Lincoln, grey Lincoln Continental. I don't know
who the hell, I just know that she followed us.
JK--She followed us all the way out.
EP--Some lady, I don't know what her name is, I don't know anything about
JK--Anyway, so let's, let's...
AL--OK, let me, let me discuss this with Ariane and give us 2 minutes.
(break in recording)
AL--Come on in.
EP--Very good.
AR--Can I just? How long you think it will last?
EP--I'm not sure
JK--As long, yeah
EP--But if you
JK--If you have to go
EP--need to go or something we will leave.
JK--And then we'll just continue.
AR--Because I have to go take my son around 4:30.
EP--Understood completely.
AR--Or you want I call and I say I come at 5?
AL--No, we can...let's see how it goes.
JK--We'll see how it goes and if we need more time, we'll just make more
time. After all we're here.
JK--You know, OK.
AR--It's fine.
JK--Alright, now, I'm just curious. Did anything happen?
AL--No. Well, we discussed it that's all.
JK--Yeah, OK. Because I thought well maybe you got upset about something,
I'd like to know. You know what I mean?
JK--'Cos yesterday, I mean, it was like, you know, a bit different than
getting a microphone in your face.
JK--Alright, good, so we basically explained what, you know, the whole
purpose of the whole thing is. Obviously a lot of cycles have to be sorted
out and we are more than prepared to do that. However...
AL--Specifically. You want to basically saay what?
JK--Yeah, specifically any, any, like the thing we went over, for instance,
yesterday, yyou know, with Albert's estate or whatever. I mean, there are
real problems. I'm sure we can assist sorting that out. However...
AL--Are you referring to Jody Darling, a debtor to Albert's estate and a
Scientologist, Hans-Kaspar Rhyner (sound of beeper).
JK--What's that?
EP--Sounds like your beeper.
JK--It's my beeper. OK. Turn it off.
AL--Hans-Kaspar Rhyner, another Scientology debtor to Albert's estate.
JK--Yeah, like, the document you gave me.
AL--And the other...
JK--You gave me a document which listed out the names.
AL--10 Scientologists owing a total of just under $1,000,000 two and a half
years ago. (sound of phone ringing) just leave it, Ariane.
AR--Yeah, I...
AL--That's what you are talking...
EP--Yeah, that's.
EP--I don't remember the exact figure, and I'm not sure if I have the
document here but yes I'm...
AR--Yeah, it's...
EP--I remember.
AL--That's something that...
JK--That's what we went over.
AL--That's something that you...
JK--That's what we discussed.
AL--want to help, you...sorry.
JK--We are prepared and we are willing to sort that out and do whatever the
church can do to sort that out and basically continue the many actions the
church has already done to sort this matter out but didn't complete the
cycle on it. That's all I wanted to say.
EP--Right. Exactly. Now the thing is, that you know, there was something, a
communication was not delivered yesterday. And the bottom line, as we see
it, is that there are 2 ways that this can go. The 2 ways are, it is we
either work it out and resolve it or we go the other route which is in the
law courts.
AR--No, that I know.
JK--OK, but it's not...
EP--And this is really what you have to understand about this.
AL--What, what matter, look we have several different matters to resolve
here. It would, it would be to everyone's advantage, and for the record I
want to have it clarified when we speak about a matter, a problem that we
specify whether we are talking about the divulgence of...
EP--I thought we did that right at the beginning. I thought I did when we
introduced ourselves and I put a little preamble. I thought that was a
AL--So you are referring to the ...
EP--What? OK:
AL--the confidential materials. We are also... we will be discussing
something that is our concern which is the money owed to Ariane's son by
Scientologists that we have discussed. So, if we can just specify...
EP--Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Ariane's son did not loan Scientologists any
AL--That's true.
EP--Albert Jaquier loaned Scientologists...
EP--as I understand...
EP--from documents, you know, that you presented and so forth.
EP--Em, you know, money...
EP--to individual Scientologists. OK, that's as I understand it.
JK--But your basic...
AL--Let me...
EP--But I don't want to make...
AL--OK. The money was not repaid and is currently owed to the estate of
Albert Jaquier and Ariane's son has a claim...
EP--On the estate.
AL---and is an inheritor in that estate.
AL--So, excuse, excuse my paraphrase but that's...
JK--No, but that's what, that's what we went over already.
JK--You gave us the documentation, that is a known fact, I mean.
JK--You know, that's...I don't think that's in question. So we have 2
matters then. We have one matter is our claim or our protection in terms of
confidentially. The other claim is Albert's estate. And I think those are
the 2 things we want to sort out. Now I think, and that's our position,
that the matter of posting confidential materials and coming to an
agreement not to do that, or not to breach any further agreements, or
whatever, is something that we have an extraordinary amount of attention
on, as you can understand.
JK--So for anybody who breached our right in terms of doing this we either
went to see them. Some of them we went to see, just like we did with you to
give them the opportunity to settle and have an agreement with us that they
won't do that, knowing well that, based on earlier signed agreements, this
is not OK to do and, in fact, it's a breach of the contract. Others didn't
want to do that.Good, so we saw them in court and we litigated because, and
this is something I want to make completely and totally clear so it's
really understood. It's not like we want, so you know, we are desperate for
a court case. No. We have to, we are obliged to do this.
JK--we have to protect the right to something which we hold confidential.
If we say, well, this part of what you study cannot be revealed then we
also have the obligation to make sure that that doesn't happen.
AL--I understand that.
JK--And when it happens we have to come to judgments that enjoin people
from doing that, like injunctions, for instance. Like somebody like Dennis
Erlich has an injunction. He cannot do that, if he does it, he is in
contempt of court and that's a jail sentence.
AL--We under...we under...
JK--In this country, you know what I mean?
AL--We understand your legal obligation to diligently take action to
protect your copyright...
EP--Trade secret...
JK--Yes and the other thing I think we should inform you...
AL--Can I...
JK--Go ahead.
AL--Well, I'll let you finish, I'll let you...
JK--OK. The other thing I think we should inform, which is only fair, in my
view, that's only honest and fair to do so. OK. So we could file a suit and
litigate and let you guys cope with that, and, I tell you, that is not a
nice situation to be in.
AL--We know, we've just, we've just had a suit from your church.
EP---I understand.
AL--We know how that is.
EP--You are right. The only thing is that is 1) it was in Switzerland. It's
a completely different thing in Switzerland, namely because the holders of
the trade secrets and the copyrights are based here in the US and those
actions that have been brought on the basis of the copyright ownership and
trade secrets are brought by the churches housed in the US and there are
numerous precedents, numerous precedents going from the early 1980's up to
the present time. I don't know if you are aware of them but Grady Ward, for
example, the Net character...
EP--there is a preliminary injunction on him that prohibits any type of
activity or Keith Henson is another.
JK--Keith Henson.
EP--I happen...You see, this was one of the, this was why I wanted to be
here because I am aware of these. I mean, I am intimately aware of them and
I also know the effects that it creates on people, when, you know, for
whatever reason, they violated our trade secrets and they wound up in a
situation where the suit was filed and it basically goes on that conveyor
belt in a, in a, in a, in a law court.
EP--It becomes hugely costly, and it's a pain, it's a pain.
JK--I mean, we can tell you this one guy, what's his name, Arnie Lerma.
AL--Well, can...spare us, spare us.
EP--Alright but no, we just thought that it was fair to, this is the other
side of the fence.
JK--It's just. You should know these things, you are not American citizens.
EP--And we don't want to do that but we, but our lawyers are saying you
better come back with something otherwise we have to.
AL--OK, OK. I would just like to make it a fact of record that, since your
initial visit to us 2 days ago...
AL--we have not posted anything, I think you will agree, we have not posted
any of your confidential scriptures.
EP--To our knowledge nothing has been posted that has violated
confidentiality. Absolutely.
JK--That's correct and I acknowledge that.
AL--So we are not dealing with a situation where we are insistent upon or
continuing to...
JK--Get it.
AL--but... to post materials.
EP--But you did.
AL--subsequent to...yes
EP--You did
AL--subsequent to being apprised of your position.
JK--Yeah, but, you know, if you would tell us...
EP--OK, but if, say, this broke down now and then tonight you decided OK,
we are going to stick OT7...
AL--I understand your, your responsibilities.
EP--Right, OK.
JK--Yeah, so we...
AL--We appreciate them.
JK--and since there was already a breach, I mean, obviously we can say well
we talked to these people and they look honest and I don't think they'll do
it. Our lawyers are going to say well you are nuts, how do you know.
AL--I understand.
JK--You know, let's face it, that's the reality. You know, you have to have
it in writing, you have to have something that is equal to a judgment. In
fact more so because there was already an earlier breach. So the respect
for contracts was, at that moment in time, no matter what the consequences
or what the circumstances were, was not there and in order to restrain the
posting from happening. So what will make this restrain the posting from
happening. You know what I mean? So there is alwas an element of risk
there, of course, in our interests and in the church's interests you want
to make that as small as possible. You know that's the bottom line. So,
what we, that is a situation we feel we need to resolve first. First and
foremost because that risk is there. There's another thing you have to know
is that there is acertain time period in which you have to act when it,
when the infringement...
EP--Legally, legally.
JK--From a law point of view...
AR--Yeah, yeah.
JK--you know the infringement takes place and, basically, there's a clock
that starts ticking and the sooner you act the better it is...
JK--for the plaintiff.
JK--Obviously now we are in negotiations, we are, so, that is a reason
where you can say that clock will slow down a bit because we are talking.
JK--We are trying to solve this without having to go to court.
JK--But that clock still ticks and there is a point in time when we, you
know, have to make a decision. I am just telling you the straight dope. I'm
not here to PR anything.
AR--No, I understand.
JK--Or make it all nice, or, or, you know, well, there won't be any problem
because I think there will be and I think you should be informed of that.
AL--So, are you saying that we, that within a certain time period we sign
or you go legal.
JK--No, there isn't like, OK well, we gave you ten days and if you don't
sign it in ten days, you know, it doesn't work like that. It works that,
from the moment of the infringement, you have to diligently pursue making
the infringement either invalid or stop it or make it, prevent it from
happening again. You have to show that you have diligently done and pursued
your rights.
JK--If you sit back and let the time go by, OK, well, we'll go next...
AR--Yeah, I know.
JK--is not diligently pursuing your rights.
JK--So that's why, you know, we come here, we talk to you guys and so on
and so forth, because we have that obligation to do so. We must.
AL--OK, I under...I understand that.
JK--Good. So that's basically, I think, the first thing we should resolve.
AL--Now, OK. Yesterday you asked us both to sign general releases which
were not confined to confidential materials but included experiences that
we had in Scientology outside of what was even on confidential or involved
in taking or receiving confidential materials.
AL--Which we refused...
EP--It included, sorry.
AL--It included, it was general, it was a general release concerning
experiences of any kind.
EP--No, no.
JK--Not quite.
EP--Not generally known.
AL--Do you have, do you have a copy?
AL--Because we should probably put it into the (unintelligible).
EP--Not generally known, I am aware, I remember the paragraph you are
referring to, 5B I think it is.
EP--Anyway, not generally known.
AL--But the point I'm making is that it was not confined to our experiences
on confidential actions, activities or our...
EP--The release of confidential materials.
EP--In public places.
JK--In the, in the public place obviously and...
JK--What it says here.
EP--That's right.
EP--Because we would like to contain eh, any spread of any confidential...
JK--Because by, I tell you why this is. It is because this is while on
church staff. That's the, so it says (reading) I will never post, publish
or attempt to post or publish anything relating to my experience with,
knowledge of, or information concerning the Scientology religion or any of
the releasees which are the parties in this contract, including any
information which I obtained while on church staff and which is not widely
known (stops reading). In other words, by joining staff and signing your
covenant, you agreed that you can be talked to and you can engage in
activities which are not normally accessible to anybody outside.
JK--I'm a staff member, I'm privy to, you know, things the church is doing,
the inner workings, the administration the what have you. The organization
inside which of course a public getting a service would not be privy to, I
mean, if I go and bank with the Bank of America I'm not sitting in their
Board meetings hearing what...
JK--You know what I'm saying
Al--Can I check this
Al--I understand
JK--and those are matters that are basically covered in the covenant that
you know you promised not to divulge any information which you received as
a staff member which otherwise you wouldn't have gotten if you were doing
the comm course.
AR--A covenant is what? is a contract?
AL--Can I , can I retain...
JK--Staff contract
JK--Staff agreement
Al--Can I retain a copy of this?No?
EP--Yeah. If it's unless you sign it. In which case obviously.
AR--Can I just see this? That is mine in French?
AR--Because mine is not the same in French.
JK--It was a little bit different. This is...
JK--We make separate ones so because each of you have to make that decision
for yourself.
AL--This states I will never post, publish or attempt to post or publish
anything relating to my experiences with, knowledge of, or information
concerning the scientology religion or any of the releasees including,
including any information which I obtained while on church staff and which
is not widely known.
AL--So therefore 5B is not limited in any way, or to just experiences on
church staff. It includes experiences on church staff that are not widely
known but specifically says anything relating to my experiences with,
knowledge of, or information concerning the scientology religion.
JK--OK. So how do you interpret that? What do you read out of that?
AL--Well, the 2 key words are "anything" and "including" because anything
means anything , it means anything relating to my experiences with,
knowledge of, or information concerning the scientology religion or any of
the releases including any information which I obtained while on staff and
which is not widely known.
AL--So this anything includes this but is not limited to this.
JK--OK, I get you. So that's how you interpret that clause ?
JK--Now, I have another question. Is there anything else in this release
that you have a problem with?
AL--Yes. I don't see...
JK--Any other clauses? It's like, let's,let's...
AL--I don't see the necessity of your requesting or suggesting or asking us
to sign a general release when your stated sole concern is the matter of
confidential materials, which you have, or you claim you already have a
signed written agreement on our parts. Do you have copies of those, by the
AL- Can you share them with us?
JK--I guess so.
AL--Do you have them with you?
JK--No, I don't have them with me, no.
AL--Could you, could you get them for us?
JK--I guess so, yes.
AL--Because we would like to, because we obviously don't remember even if
we did sign, what we signed.
AL--Etc., etc., etc.
EP--Yeah, I mean you remember what you signed when you joined New World
Corps staff, right? You remember signing a...
AL--I actually don't remember what I signed, and I certainly don't remember
the details of what I signed, and I certainly don't even know if what I
signed was legally valid. So...
JK--OK, well that's one thing.
AL--My, my...
EP--OK, well you see that's...
JK--No that's...
EP--that puts it all into the law courts, I mean.
AL--I know, I, I, I, know.
EP--We can and the validity and the this and the that and the other. That's
OK. Fine.
JK--That's where you go, now you go in court, the lawyer says this, this is
that, etc.
EP--We don't want to go that way. We don't want to go that way.
AL--I understand that. We also don't want to be...
EP--You see...
AL--scared or frightened into doing something.
EP--I understand.
AL--Like this general release...
JK--I get it.
AL--which is unnecessary, is, is extremely, is, is a total gag on our free
speech concerning a subject that we were involved in for more than half of
our lives.
JK--OK, well, just want to correct one earlier thing you said.
JK--Just let me put that straight, which is that you say, well, why do I
have to sign this if you already have it.
JK--Because we are not dealing here with the original situation of you
having signed the agreements and nothing happened. You have breached the
contracts you signed.
JK--So we are here to settle that breach, you understand? That's a bit of a
difference. It's a...
JK--it's a different situation, a different circumstance. There has been a
breach so you settle the breach. We are not settling the earlier contracts,
those are fine. We're settling...
EP--Many settlement agreements when there was a contract originally and
there was some dispute over it and then there's been a subsequent
settlement which resolved that...
EP--very common.
JK--You know,
AL--I can follow.
JK--You know resolve the new circumnstance.
AL--I follow.
JK--OK, now, if we look at this, though, just as a point of, OK it says
general release, it may...
AL--Well let, let me. Why don't you... what, what is your, let me ask your
minimum requirement on this matter of confidentiality?
AL--This is your minimum requirement?
EP--No, no, no, no.
AL--What is your minimum? What is your minimum?
EP--That we require?
JK--Something that is equal to a judgment that will protect our rights
completely and fully.
JK--That is what our minimal requirement would be. Something that we could
get in court, however we think we can do it without all the court and the
cost and the lawyers and so on. Because we don't want to put you up to a
lot of expenses and really realize it's very expensive. I mean Arnie Lerma
just up to summary judgment, that is the first step in the case, paid
$950,000. I mean that is a horrendous amount.
EP--Lawyer's fees, lawyer's...
JK--That's just the lawyer's fees, and then now he sits with a summary
judgment where he has to pay us damages. Now, what position is that to be
EP--He violated... He was, he was, he was. Do you know the name Arnie
JK--He was...You met the guy?
AR--I don't know him.
EP--He was a staff member and so on and he came in and out and so on, and
so on many times and he eh got, did some confidential levels, violated
those eh agreements, we sued him because we had to and eh the court case,
you know it was, it was a fast track in Virginia and eh we filed a summary
judgment motion, it was upheld, it was granted and we have a judgment in
our favour. We have damages awarded us for each of his breaches and we
have, he has to pay our lawyer's fees.
JK--Yeah, is just a...
EP--I know, I was sitting there...
JK--position to be in.
EP--when the judge ruled.
JK--You know, if we go that route, it would be so bloody useless.
JK--Because even if you would get Albert's $1.2 million...
JK--You don't want to pay that to attorneys. That's the last thing you want
to do.
EP--No, that's any money that you would have now...
JK--Come on...
EP--or would have in the future gets totally blown down the drain.
JK--It's expensive for us.
AL--We have no claim, we have no claim on Albert Jaquier's 1.2 million.
Ariane's son has a claim on Albert's 1.2 million
EP--I am sorry. Turn it around. (referring to tape in his recorder) Right.
AL--No, I just wanted to clarify , it's Ariane's son who has a claim on
AL--Not us.
EP--Understand. Understand.
AL--We are not claiming against Albert's estate.
JK--I get it. OK. Alright, so that is like really like, the things we want
to lay out and then if you look at this thing thought and OK if you like
suspend part B here because you have a problem with that. As far as I see
and understand this thing it's like really, it, it tells you to do a few
things. You cannot...
JK--You cannot breach, you cannot breach anything that you know is
JK--Maintaining the confidentiality.
AL--He cannot even keep his face straight. Ed can't keep...
EP--I understand.
AL--Ed can't keep...
EP--I understand what you're laughing at, I understand.
AL--Ed cannot listen to you and keep a straight face.
JK--OK, that's fine.
AL--You can't say it and keep a straight face.
EP--Don't interpret what I'm doing.
AL--I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
EP--Putting your own thing on it. I understand what you're laughing at,
it's good.
JK--No problem. I'd rather laugh than be...
EP--Yeah, exactly.
JK--I tell you that.
EP--Especially when we're talking about (unintelligible)
JK--It's already a very depressing subject. So what it says is...
AL--We are not, we are, we are, Jaqueline, we are not signing it and we are
not discussing it.
AL--We're not, we're not, we're not going to hack it to pieces and then,
you understand?
AL--I understand your position on the confidential materials. You cannot
use that to gag us is our position.
EP--OK, good. Let me clarify something, make sure I fully understand it.
Now let us say that this release was directed solely at confidential
AL--Oh, we'd have to consider it. I'm, I'm not, I'm not saying.
EP--I'm not asking you to...
EP--promise me one thing or the other. I just want, so that I can think
with the cycle. If it were restricted solely to the uh whatever the word
is, of upper level materials...
EP--and that basically...
JK--There was a breach, in settlement of the breach we enter an agreement
between you and the church that you will not breach on confidential upper
level materials. Confidential information for which you know it's
confidential because you've signed agreements to that effect. That's it.
AL--That would be uh, that would be acceptable to you?
EP--I'm asking if it would be acceptable to you.
AL--I don't, I'm not saying.
EP--OK, OK. See, OK.
AL--But that would be acceptable to you?
JK--I don't know either, honestly.
EP--It would, I tell you what.
AL--We're going to have to. I mean, it's going to have to be checked.
AL--We're going to have to check it. We're, we're not signing anything
without it being checked.
EP--I'll tell you something, it would make our job a lot easier.
AL--If we did? I'm sure, but...
EP--You know. I mean, you don't know the pressure that comes to bear when
the lawyers are pounding on the table and saying you're giving away your
rights. What the hell are you playing at? You know, give them away, fine.I
we were led to believe that you, you considered your sacred scriptures
sacred and yet, you know, you're letting them, you know the...
AL--I understand your problem.
JK--Yeah, the obligation is there and...
EP--And we are here to resolve it.
AL--I understand that.
JK--But it's not just, Alex, it's not just our problem. You're involved in
that problem. You realise that?
AL--Yeah, I'm, I'm, I, I,
JK--You're really involved. It's, you know, our problem goes to the extent
that we have to go through the motions, get the machine rolling, instruct
our lawyers, go to court, get the witnesses, the testimony, the this, that,
the other, you know how it is, you've watched LA Law. You know how these
court cases...
EP--Don't blame you.
AL--There is a difference between our situation and the situation of Dennis
Erlich or Grady Ward or Arnie Lerma in that right now we are not posting.
Right now we are not actively posting any confidential materials and we
have not for 2 days. We have not subsequent to your first visit. That is a
difference, that is something that you can tell your lawyers.
JK--Yeah because I'm not sure if that will hold up in a court of law.
EP--Lerma posted 2 times, in fact he only posted once but it was sent out 2
JK--It may not always, because a breach is a breach. You can breach once,
it's a breach. The difference between a hundred breaches and one breach is
very small. A hundred breaches may show a continuous...
AL--Well, there is no need for...
JK--You know, like despite us talking, you would go back to your computer
and post again and we talk again and you go back to your computer and post
again. That, of course, makes matters worse but...
AL--Why? You said we could post anything we wanted if it was not...
JK--No, I am talking about upper level stuff.
AR--No, upper level.
AL--Ahh, you are talking about hypothetically.
AL--Ahh, I am just...
JK--You say...
EP--Yes, yes, yes.
AL-I thought you were talking about we posted...
AL--Jody Darling and the diary when we were in the middle of discussion.
JK--So. That would make matters worse if you would do that. Obviously you
are not doing it. You say you are not doing it, I don't know. I have to
believe you because I know there is...
AL--Well, it shouldn't be a problem.
JK--Yeah, but...
JK--what comes on the Internet doesn't always show up right away, you know.
It can take days for it to show up. It's not like an instant, it's not
e-mail, like, you know, you send your e-mails.
AL--Yeah, I know.
JK--There is a comm lag to that, so I have to take your word which I am
ready to do. I mean, I don't think you are sitting here, lying through your
teeth to me, you know what I mean, so, but you have to realise a breach is
a breach and to something which is a trade secret or confidential thing,
it's sort of, because of the litigation that has occurred, factually, we
probably have been the first ones ever litigating over these subjects.
There are laws that we in fact, almost wrote the book on. Because the
precedents and the jurisprudence, you know what that word means?
AR--Yeah, I know.
JK--Jurisprudawnz, I'm sure you have that in French.
AR--Yes, yes.
JK--exists now on the cases that we have ongoing or have had and if you
look at a big access provider like Netcom is one of the biggest in the
world. They adopted rules where they will screen for any copyright
violations and trademark rights.
EP--Yeah, that's settled.
JK--That's unique. Before our cases Netcom would never have thought about
doing that. In fact it wasn't a practise at all. It was, well, you post so
it's your responsibility but it isn't really.
EP--That's right. The whole protocol...
JK--They wrote the whole...
AL--Excuse me, I just want to put the air-conditioner...
JK--OK, OK, OK. You see so these are not minor matters in the, you know, we
are creating almost law and definitely jurisprudence on the whole subject.
EP--Add to that our own lawyer. Our lawyer on these cases is the trade
secret lawyer in the country.
AL--Yeah, so I heard.
JK--The guy wrote the book on the subject, literally. But, besides that,
apart of that...
EP--We take it seriously. It really is. It's not just us here, it's, it
really is something. You appreciate that anyway.
JK--You see, there's been, since 1950 there's been people that didn't agree
with the church of Scientology since 1954 when the first church started.
But even before that you know, and they had their say, and they had their
thing to say about the church.
JK--And it may not have been good. I mean, I've seen in my 22 years, I've
seen stuff, you know. Obviously there have been people that weren't happy
and they've tried all sorts of things. Look at people like David Mayo.
Well, that was a battle and a half. You know what I mean? It's like they,
they weren't happy with what they got out of it. OK. Good. There's one
thing otherwise, another thing I just wanted to tell you, just apart of
anything else, which is that just saying OK, it's all the church's fault
that I am in this position is factually not honest and not true because it
really isn't the church's fault, you know. Like, whose fault? Who, within
the church? What has happened? What was applied or wasn't applied? There
are numerous circumstances just like, for instance, you cannot hold the
Pope in the vatican responsible for what his millions of parishioners do.
AL--We understand that.
JK--You know what I mean?
AL--Yeah, we understand that.
JK--So, you can talk about bad experiences but even then there is enough to
say about that too. Understand? There is enough to say about that. There is
your side of the story, there is other sides to that same story where other
people have their own experiences with the same situation and what occurred
and they have lots of things to say too. It's a game in other words. That,
OK, my viewpoint, your viewpoint, Joe's and Bill's and Fred's and Peter's
viewpoint. We have all these viewpoints. Well, what do we achieve with it.
I don't think it achieves much. I mean the church is still there, you know.
But we are being thrown to our faces over the years, is a lot but we are
still there. If we would have done 1% of what we are accused of, honestly
we wouldn't be there. Not a soul would want to come into the church.
AL--OK, that's a, that's a, that's a theological discussion.
JK--Nobody wanting to do that but that's just aside. I mean we can go over
that over a cup of coffee.
AL--Yeah we obviously need to have full and proper legal advice before we
enter into any agreement or contract, etc. I mean that's, that's sane. Uh,
we understand your position, your requirements.
EP--Would you...
AL--Your minimum requirement would, would be...
JK--Or one of our ...
AL--Word it as, word it as, as, as, as...
EP--I just want to make sure that we are tracking.
AL--would be, would be, would be a promise on our parts, this would be your
minimum requirement, a promise on our part to, to not divulge specifically
upper level confidential materials, R6EW through New OT8.
JK--Yeah, or matters such as the Running Program that is not something you
can read in HCOB's or you can...
EP--Or the Class 8 course. Confidential.
JK--Yeah, which you can buy in any bookstore.
EP--Our scriptures.
JK--That's not stuff you can buy in any bookstore.
JK--You know it's not Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. That
you can talk about to your heart's content.
JK--Because it's publicly available.
AL--So, so, so, so that would be acceptable. I mean, you would have to have
a verification on that but...
JK--Yeah, we have to talk to...
AL--For you that would resolve all your problems would be a promise that...
EP--The immediate problem.
JK--Well, I, you see, we have to go back about that, you have to go back
about that. I, I cannot guarantee, here and now, that that would be...
AL--I understand.
JK--the end of all our problems. I cannot guarantee that.
EP--Yeah, I'd like you to...
JK--Because I don't know.
EP--go totally your own way, you don't even think about Scientology again.
I mean, that's up to you.
AL--Alright, but that's, that would be our discussion of experiences
outside of confidential material. You, you want to discuss, but the matter
of your problem that you have voiced concerning upper level materials would
be possibly resolved to your satisfaction with a, a promise on our parts
that we would not divulge, in the future, any of the specified materials
which are primarily technical materials.
AL--OK, so that's, so that's...
AL--And that would be worded accordingly. So that's something, because we
cannot have a copy...
EP--Well, you could write it.
AL--well, we don't actually want a copy of this (referring to the general
release) but...
JK--I mean if you are not agreed to this then it's useless to even talk
about it. But if we can set parameters like you just did.
JK--Then I think we can come to an agreement.
EP--Right, because that gets the legal stuff out of here then we can
JK--Do we have something concrete to go with?
AL--OK, why don't you guys draft something?
EP--You want us to draft...
(end of side 1 of tape)
AL--Ariane, do you want to call Michael and just say...
AR--(unintelligible) let me.
AL--It will probably be in the phonebook.
JK--It's on
JK--Well, I think we are, we are basically done. Right? I mean we do
AL--With your problem, Jaqueline. That was one of our concerns yesterday,
was that our concern was basically, well, then, blown off. Most of the time
we spent discussing your concerns. Our concerns have not, to our view, been
adequately discussed or resolved or even...
AR--(on phone) Is Ariane, the mom of Michael Jaquier.
JK--No, I get it.
AL--Even, even a resolution instituted on these matters.
JK--Well, what you have to...
AL--Because, let me finish, let me finish, let me, let me, because this,
this situation with the debts owed to the estate of Albert which is
currently stuck in probate...From certainly...
AR--(on phone) Hi, I am the mom of Michael Jaquier.
AL--Let me wait until she.
AR--Thankyou, yeah, thankyou.
JK--Is he in school? He goes to school?
AL--Yeah, well he finishes school and...
JK--So there is some...
AL--Supervision after school.
AR--Michael, ca va? On va venir te chercher vers 5 heures. Ca va?
AL--He's bilingual.
AR--Merci, gros bec. Bye, bye.
JK--Is he OK?
AL--Yeah, so the situation as regards the estate of Albert. Albert, it's
obvious from what Albert wrote and communicated to various individuals in
the different parts of the church, that he considered that the money that
he had thought he had invested in the company of Jody Darling was, or was
maybe not directly, but enabled Jody Darling to pay $150,000 to the
International Association of Scientologists shortly after and then
subsequent to that Jody Darling became delinquent on that debt and when
Jody Darling was arranging that debt, that loan, he was sending faxes from
the office of the International Association of Scientologists in
Clearwater. Now, Jody Darling currently owes the estate of Albert over
$300,000, do you contest that?
JK--I have seen at least the...
JK--data and the paper you gave me.
AL--Well, let me, can I...
AL--because this is our concern. You have your concern, this is our
concern. Now yesterday we discussed probate laws and it is possible, if not
probable, that Jody Darling does not have any, the money to repay this
debt. Right? Either he doesn't have it or he doesn't want to pay it. He
hasn't paid it. He has, he has been delinquent for about 4 years. He was
refusing to communicate when he was delinquent. So, what, what your
suggested solution has been is to get Jody Darling in Clearwater and to,
and to attempt to make Jody DArling good on his debt which then has to go
to the estate and then has to be put through probate, etc., etc., etc.,
etc. Now it's true that Michael won't actually need it or get it till he's
18, but if Jody Darling doesn't have it and his Pacific Training is
bankrupt, then...
AL--What I'm trying, what I'm trying to say is that the International
Association of Scientologists received $150,000 from ...
JK--You don't know that.
AL--Yeah, it says...
EP--You know that from that.
AL--His photograph's in Impact.
EP--I understand that, I understand that, uh, I also know that Jody Darling
borrowed vast quantities of money from innumerable, innumerable, many
different people.
AL--I know.
EP--How do you know...
AL--We don't.
EP--that it was...
AL--We don't.
EP--Albert's ...
JK--Says he doesn't.
AL--Uhuh, it's uh, you can't follow a dollar bill through a bank.
AL--You, you see what I'm saying.
EP--OK, I just want to make sure I understood.
AL--But, what I'm...Right but he's a Patron Meritorious and listed as such.
Therefore he paid IAS $250,000. When he borrowed the money he was, in his
handwritten letter, he was a Patron with Honors, that is $100,000. He paid
$150,000 shortly after the...you understand?
JK--Yeah, uh what's the significance there in terms of what he did with the
AL--IAS received money from him, he received money from Albert. He
EP--So you are like showing, trying to show a chain of title of the money,
as it were.
AL--He does, yeah, well he got 200 from Albert. In the same time period he
paid 200, he paid 150 to IAS. He arranged it from the IAS office.
JK--Now just, I'm...
JK--Just one thing you have to explain. What's the significance of where
that money went for you? For you or for Michael or...
JK--or the estate.
JK--That's my only question here.
AL--Eh, ok. Let me, let me, let me mention a similar situation. Edwin Baer
also borrowed money from Albert. Edwin Baer got a refund from IAS. We have
evidence that he got a refund. That's how he repaid Albert.
JK--That money went to Albert? It went to Albert?
EP--Yeah we know the money...
JK--For Albert.
AL--I'll give you, I'll give you.
EP--Checked that this morning.
AL--I'll ask Ariane to read it because it's in French and then we can
translate it for the record.
EP--Totally fine.
AL--It's, it's, it's Edwin Baer's letter to Albert stating that he had
arranged the refund from IAS, uh, just translate it we don't have to put
all the French in. I'll give you a copy.
AR--OK. he says I work during...
AL--This is from Edwin Baer in Switzerland.
AR--Yeah. He says I work...
AL--Let me give you the date, the date, the date.
AR--Sorry, 5 October 94.
AL--To Albert Jaquier.
AR--Yeah. He said I, I work during a lot of weeks with the D/ED IASA to
find a solution for the money which, how can you, is owed to me.
AR--But I didn't receive yet. I had to do a CSW asking a part of the money
I had...
AR--loaned uh to another people as a...
AL--I had to ask that it be reimbursed by IAS.
AR--by IAS. He said it was just cycles who was not regular. You understand
regular, not straight.
JK--An irregular cycle.
AR--Yeah, not straight.
JK--It says irregular, yeah.
AR--I don't know if it's...
JK--Irregulaire or whatever.
AL--So you can have a copy of that.
EP--OK, this is for us.
JK--So basically what you are saying is, if Jody is not able to pay the
money back out of his own pocket, IAS should be doing that for him. Is that
what you are explaining to me? That, or there is a possibility for IAS to
do that.
JK--I get it.
AL--Yeah, since they were a beneficiary of, not necessarily, not
necessarily directly but they benefitted in the time period. You
JK--Uhuh. Yeah I do, yeah, yeah.
AL--And we can, we can say, well, if Darling had not paid this he would
have been in a much, much better position to
AL--refund or repay the debt to Albert and since, by church policy Albert
was prohibited from taking legal action against Jody Darling and his other
debtors...This was by church policy that resulted in Albert being unable to
and, before he died, then, since he was prohibited by taking legal action
and the church, at that time, and we have evidence of this, claimed to be
administering justice in the affair and failed to uh force or uh ensure
that justice was done in time, as evidenced by the fact that the money was
not repaid and Albert died. So that he couldn't go to a lawyer, he went to
his church and I think the evidence demonstrates that his church failed him
in handling these. You told me the first day...Let me, can I finish?
JK--Yeah sure.
AL--Becaus this is, yeah. You told me the first day that in December '94
Jody Darling was denied services at the church of Scientology. At that
time, Albert was dead. This situation had been brought to the attention of
the church, this is, this is described, this is chronologically laid out in
the post. It had been brought to the attention of the church several years
earlier when Albert was still alive. The church failed, they prevented him
from seeking legal action and they failed to provide any substitute justice
that was effective in time because if Jody Darling had paid when he said he
would pay, Albert could have received, could have paid for and received the
medical attention he desperately needed ro stay alive. And we cannot
definitely state, but it is a possibility that right now you would be
talking to Albert and not us.
AL--That is what I...
JK--I know.
AL--That, that is...
JK--I understand what you're saying.
AL--OK, but..
JK--I understand what you're saying.
AL--And I'm not finished.
AL--Michael Jaquier was 7 years old when his father died. He lost his
father. Now you may consider all he needs is a ruds session but...
AL--He lost his father. He loved his father. Several years before that he
had lost his mother through the policy of disconnection for a period of 7
months. Michael's story has not yet been put on Internet, Jaqueline.
AL--Albert was his stable parent after he was disconnected from his
mother.With Albert's death he was disconnected from his father. You
JK--I do, I hear you.
JK--I hear what you're saying.
JK--I hear what you are saying.
AL--And, and my emotion is that I still see Michael sitting sometimes and
he will be reminded of his father and you can see his... he looks off
middle distance and his eyes mist over and he doesn't speak about it, he
doesn't say anything but you know what is happening with the guy. You
JK--I hear you.
AL--Yes, he's recovering, yes, yes, yes. The nightmares he had, but they
are not as bad, you understand?
JK--I hear you, I hear you certainly.
AL--Your church was involved in that, Jaqueline, it was...
JK--Yeah, well.
AL--Specifically by preventing Albert from what, what, what is available to
non-Scientologists which is the courts of law and civil action. He was
prohibited from doing that. He would have been declared or susceptible to
declaration as an SP if he had done that. So he couldn't do that. He also..
JK--Did anybody? No, can I ask a question?
JK--Because I, I am...
AL--Yeah. I'm pretty much, pretty much...
JK--Those are like heavy accusations, you know, and I don't have
necessarily a counter view on it yet because one of the things we are doing
is still going through all the data. I mean, as I said...
JK--A week ago I didn't even know you. A week ago I had never heard of
Albert Jaquier. So we are still going through everything and we are talking
to people and getting all the data together. We have your story which you
posted. We have what you claim is Albert's diary which is in the post. I
don't know if that is a literal representation of it. But we have files and
we are going through this, so we still have to, and you have to grant us a
bit of time to sort this thing out. For you this is a cycle that has been
taking years and years and years. You are intimately familiar with...
JK--the things that went down. For us we aren't.
AL--Your church was first informed in, in, eh '91.
AL--When Jody Darling was initially delinquent on the, so...
JK--Yeah, there, I've seen in the files, I've seen justice actions, I've
seen Board of Investigations (sic), I've seen chaplain's courts and about
this much...
AR--I know.
JK--correspondence about the cycle. It isn't like , you know, nothing
happened because I tell you these files are thick.
AR--I know.
JK--On the whole cycle. On whatever went down on it.
AL--Well, that's, that's paper.
JK--You know.
EP--Yeah, he kept documents.
AL--That's what this...
EP--Albert a lot of, a lot of documents.
JK--And Albert kept...
AL--I know, yeah I know.
JK--stuff and he sent that to these files.
EP--Did he ever file a CSW to file a civil action with, eh, with IJC?
EP--You know the policy that says do a CSW IJC, if you don't hear back
within a certain amount of time, I can't remember...
JK--It says you have to notify IJC. It doesn't say you can't sue, you have
to notify IJC.
AR--I think he didn't. Nobody told him that.
EP--That's what I think. I haven't read the P/L in a long time.
JK--I don't know if he ever did or some. I mean this is something you can
read and, you know...
EP--Maybe he did, maybe he did, maybe he did.
JK--We'll, we'll bring the policy in tomorrow. You can read it. It's like
publicly available.
AR--I don't know if he did.
AR--No idea.
EP--OK, I, I mean I haven't seen it in the file.
JK--I was just wondering if anybody told him...
EP--But he may well have done.
JK--Not, you know, like you cannot sue, you cannot sue, you cannot sue. You
say the church prohibited him from suing. I only know what the policy says,
which is very literal about that. I can bring that tomorrow, highlight it,
show it to you. So, I was just wondering if there, is there, because that
is not something I saw in the files, particularly that somebody says...
AL--Are you suggesting...
EP--We haven't been through everything.
AL--Are you suggesting that Albert should have sought, eh, should have
engaged in a civil action?
JK--No. I am just asking.
EP--If he felt that that was the only thing that he could do, then he
should have applied that policy letter. If that was the only thing that he
felt he could do. Maybe he did, I don't know. We have, we have...
JK--Did he ever file a complaint, did he? You say he didn't,huh?
AL--You mean civil, you mean outside the church?
EP--Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
AL--I would have to check.
EP--Yeah, I am not sure either. Anyway, independently check.
JK--So that's a whole, you know, again, as I said. This is a cycle that,
you know, you are emotional about and I hear you and I understand that.
JK--On the other hand, it's, for us, a fairly new thing that I haven't had
on my lines for, you know, (unintelligible) up till a week ago, literally.
So I want to familiarise myself with the whole thing. Because I know, if I
have all the information, I know it can be resolved. If I don't have the
information there is nothing I can do. You know what I mean? That is
literally where I come from so...
AL--OK. I, I'm, OK.
JK--I know this is a concern of yours.
JK--I know that.
JK--You have your viewpoint, you know what happened or you have your data.
AL--Yeah, yeah.
JK--There is also probably a lot, I know there is a lot of other data. A
lot of other people wrote a bunch of things about this. Albert's estate was
something that I know, for sure, was discussed by a lot of people.
EP--Yeah. You don't know what was done to get Edwin Baer to pay. I just
found out some of the stuff this morning.
AR--On Edwin Baer?
EP--I mean a lot of, anyway, you know, to make the guy take responsibility
for, I know because our area, not CSI, but, you know, took a lot of cleanup
of the guy, and made him confront it and so on, and so on, and so on. Uh,
the thing that I was thinking of is, eh, you see, for us doing anything
while we have this confidentiality thing hanging out there, it, really it
is a problem.
AR--I know that.
EP--It really is a problem and the other thing is, eh,
AL--Are you saying that you are not going to, you don't want to discuss it
until it's, until you get...?
EP--No, no, we are discussing it.
AL--He's jumping back on the confidentiality. He is...
AR--It's a problem for me to continue.
(continued in Part 2)