CSI/OSA tape Part 2. Operation Dumb & Dumber?
[01 Oct 1996]

Main Index A.R.S. Web Summary Ex-Scientologists Speak

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:32:00 -0400
From: Ariane&Alex JACKSON <106231.2751@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: CSI/OSA tape Part 2. Operation Dumb & Dumber?
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(continued from Part 1)
AR--It's a problem for me to continue.
JK--Well, let's say this. We came to talk to you because of your posting.
That was the reason why we came. The posting of the confidential stuff.
JK--In the course of dealing with your cycle, you know, we find out about
the whole Albert cycle. I personally was not aware of all that, but I came
back to see and we find that this is a point where you have a lot of
attention on. Obviously...
JK--Good. So we came here to do A, you come back to us or we find out there
is also a B.
JK--Good, now what we want to do and I think this, you know, in all
fairness we want to resolve this confidentiality thing because that is
definitely a direct, immediate risk for the church where we have to act.
JK--Good. I'm not excluding, we won't talk about Albert's estate,
absolutely not and I said you have to give us some time to go through all
the packs which we are doing every day. I can tell you that. You know,
familiarising ourselves but also talking to people. You know, I told you
yesterday, Jody will come to Clearwater. I want to talk to him.
JK--I want to know from his mouth what happened and I have the right to do
so, you know what I mean? And certainly when there is these large sums
involved I want to know. So we'll have to work with this.
ALL--(laughs) I laugh because Albert heard that, Jaqueline. Albert heard
that more times than...
JK--I know. But I also said something else to you yesterday. Surely you
remember that? We have come here with full authority to sort out anything
that needs to be sorted out and I can personally do that so trust me.
EP--You gotta give us a little bit of trust.
JK--That makes it...
AL--Well, it certainly, it certainly, it's not an option under the
circumstances, but, OK we have voiced our concern, you have voiced your
concern. We have to discuss it, we have to seek advice.
AR--You have to come with the paper on OT materials.
AL--You have to do a draft and let us see it.
JK--We'll go over it with our guys and work out what is legit, what is the
minimal requirement. We'll work out what the minimal requirement is.
JK--And we'll come back and we'll have the same setting if you don't mind.
JK--I mean, if this is an acceptable setting to you.
JK--Then we'll just take it from there. I mean, this is a thing that ...
JK--I don't think will be resolved in 10 minutes.
AL--Well, it hasn't been.
EP--And a resolution, I mean is a resolution.
JK--That's another thing that's...
EP--It's not...
JK--We want to, when we walk out of here...
EP--If we part and it's not happy...
JK--When we part it is a completely handled situation, a handled cycle.
AL--Yeah, but there are two different definitions of handled, you...
JK--Look, if you were not happy it would not be handled.
EP--Right, because then you would stick something on the Internet tomorrow
and it would be...
JK--If you would go out and say OK, well fuck you...
EP--it would be the same thing.
JK--Fuck you, go outta my life, OK, you know, if you would do something or
we would say that it ain't handled...
AL--Yeah, well, let me, let me, OK, let me make, let me make a suggestion
before we...
AL--This general release, to try and get us to sign this general release is
unrealistic. It's nowhere near a handling. It is, yeah, he, he knows. You,
and you, probably, right...So get real, get real, you understand?
EP--I do understand.
AL--We are not, we are not, we are not whining victims and we are not, you
know, you did everything and look at everything that you did and you are
going to pay. Well, that is not our flow, you understand.
JK--Yeah, we do.
AL--So get real because we are real.
JK--Uhuh, good.
EP--By the same token, by the same token, uh, I, you know, we have to force
people to do things. Trying to force somebody to do something on behalf of
somebody who,by church tenets, or 2 people who, by church tenets, have
committted suppressive acts, the worst action conceivable in Scientology.
JK--What he probably is trying, I'll, I'll, I'll...
JK--translate it.
JK--You asked me to get real and I will. I am. Also there is the other
reality of your situation, you see.
AL--We are the... wha, ah.
JK--No, the knife cuts both ways. There is the reality of, if you choose
litigation, if you choose...
JK--to go that route...
JK--be real because know what you are sticking your foot into.
AL--I know, I know, I know.
JK--You know, so that's what I'm saying. I don't mind being told to be
real, but on the same hand, I want to tell you that, do the same thing,
apply your own words of wisdom to yourself and really look at what's there
in, you know, at the end of that road because it ain't anything pleasure
for any of us. And that is the reality I am dealing with and I can...
JK--You understand?
JK--Good, and as long as we have those realities, I am sure we can sort it
out. I'm...
EP--What, what, what?
AL--It was light and then it just got...
AL--Em. No, when I said...
EP--OK, I think we are...
AL--Yeah, yeah, we, we are, we are, we are, we are overruning. When I said,
when I said get real, it wasn't, I wasn't being smartass. You understand?
EP--OK. I didn't take it that way.
AL--Because if you, if you, if you, if you are not then what you say we are
not going to go off happy, you see?
JK--Oh no, I don't, no, but...
AL--You see the general release...
AL--You, you see what I'm saying.
JK--It's not right for you.
AL--It's like, why waste our...
AL--Don't waste our time and don't let us start editing it and stuff like
that. You, you see what I'm saying.
EP--You won't see that document again.
AL--Or, or a, you know, different words but the same sense, the same, you
EP--I know, you can read, you can understand what you read. You understand
legal sufficient to know what the significance of those legal terms are.
EP--I understand.
AL--Anything, the word anything, it means anything. Don't tell me that's
just when you were on staff. That's what I'm saying when I'm...
JK--OK, well that's...
AL--It's what I mean when I'm saying get, get real.
JK--Good, that's how I understand it. You don't understand it that way
fine, so...
AL--You still think it just means...
JK--That's the reality of that.
AL--You still think it means just staff?
JK--I don't, I don't think that it says you cannot talk about any of your
JK--We do all the time on the Internet. How, you know, if it would say that
you cannot talk about anything concerning Scientology then what are our 5
or 6 or 7 or 37 Web sites for?
AL--People who haven't signed it.
JK--OK, no.
AL--People who haven't signed it.
JK--Full of experiences with people but the difference is...
AL--They are good.
JK--They are good and they are happy. So it would be sort of a bit stupid
to say well you can't talk about Scientology anymore. I mean, I maybe
blunt, but I'm not dumb, OK. That is really, you know, what I mean. It's
like, there can never be such a thing. You talk, you will, if you want to
talk about Scientology, you talk about Scientology. We expect you to say
the truth though because otherwise you enter a whole other realm of stuff
is libel and slander which is a whole different ballgame.
JK--Or inciting to hatred. If you say, I, I think that church is so bad
that I think every one of you should now go and bomb the church or
something you can incite hatred. In Florida there happens to be a statute
that says, a law if you utter words or publish words, say something with
the intention to stir up hatred against somebody else, a group, an
organization or whatever, that's illegal. You go to jail. It's a criminal
offense, it's called hate statute, a hate crime. You cannot and, and that's
because if you, well, we are in the United States, you have multi-colored
people, the Ku Klux Klan, they are burning churches right now. There is a
whole flap going on where 600 churches in the south of this country, black
churches, you know, black ministers...
JK--have been burned to the ground. So, the whole subject of hate crime
right now is a much discussed thing. If you buy Newsweek this week, it's
all in there. You know? You cannot say something that will incite that
emotion of hatred towards the subject you are talking about.
AR--I understand.
JK--So that's what I am saying, you know, within the parameters of free
speech there is also just the criminal code of the United States. If I say
I am going to kill the President of the United States, just saying it will
lock me up. Not even, I don't even have to prove that I intended it or
didn't intend it or what... just uttering these words and there is no FBI
agent that will grant you your free speech of saying that, you know what I
mean? So it, it, there, there is a criminal code, that's all I'm saying.
JK--There is laws and within those laws you are completely fine and
overstep the laws you go to jail and particularly in this country, that's a
very black and white type of affair. So that's what I am saying. If you
want to post your experiences and it isn't libel, it isn't slander, and it
isn't a hate crime, go ahead and do so.
EP--I got a question. So we're doing this document, we're modifying this
thing, right?
AL--I thought you were going to draft another one not modify that one.
EP--Allow me to correct or amend what I earlier said. Yes, we are rewriting
from scratch.
EP--What are you guys doing? I mean, is there something?
EP--It's almost like a summary, a recap.
AL--I know.
AL--We, we're, we're discussing it.
EP--OK, good.
AL--And we're getting advice from...
EP-- Whomever you want to get advice from. Good, I'm clear.
JK--OK, good, so what, we meet tomorrow, same time, same setting?
EP--A bit earlier.
JK--Or maybe around...
EP--Any, whichever way...
JK--We'd like to have it around the same time unless it's a problem.
EP--A little later.
JK--picking up your kid.
AL--Well, he will be here the whole weekend.
JK--That's right.
AL--Yeah, Monday.
AL--Monday. We are going to have, we are going to have him all weekend.
EP--I see.
JK--That's a 2 day lapse. There is, I mean, tomorrow.
AL--Work on Jody
AL--That, eh, snide. I said work on Jody.
JK--Don't be snide on me, I told you earlier.
JK--I'm not snide on you, OK.
EP--I understand.
AL--Get Jody, he deserves it.
EP--Can we give you a call?
AL--If we give you our number we are going to get calls and calls and
JK--What, from me? I don't want to call you.
AL--I know, but you have to.
JK--Why would I call you? No, I think it would be good if we could meet
tomorrow and just, you know, both diligently work to resolve this
situation.We told you we...
EP--Do you want to meet by the pool?
JK--We want to be diligent about this.
AL--It's mobbed.
EP--Is it?
JK--And I don't know...
JK--can, uh, he, can he play in the pool and maybe, uh...
AL--That would be...
JK--Joan could be with him?
JK--I'm sure she likes a dip in the pool.
AL--If we can, if we can arrange something before Monday we'll call you. I
know that's a problem for you, I know it's.
AL--I know, I know what kind of...
JK--Well, let, let me ask you this. What we can do is why don't we come by
tomorrow, like say about 2 o'clock and we take it from there. Like if you
can do it fine. If you can't, you can't. I may not be in the office, we're
out and about too. So I don't want to miss your call or have somebody near
the phone or whatever. I'd rather not do that.
EP--Yeah we're going through files, we have to interview prople, we have to
JK--We'll be here 2 o'clock tomorrow and then...
JK--you can tell us, well...
EP--And if we can't stay...
JK--I mean, if you, if it is this weather...
EP--You know we respect your...
JK--he's playing outside. Sorry.
AR--Yeah, we can do that.
JK--You know it wouldn't be a problem. If he's in the house or watching TV
or whatever we coukld take it from there. OK?
JK--Let's do that. OK?
EP--Very good.
AL--End of meeting.
EP--End of meeting, 4:30 or close to.
(end of transcript).