Cult Awareness Network Interview / Full Transcript (Tues. 8/4)
[08 April 1997]

Interview with an official of the new, Scientology-owned, Cult Awareness Network.

Main Index A.R.S. Web Summary Media

From: Joey Kahn <kahn@cris.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Cult Awareness Network Interview / Full Transcript (Tues. 8/4)
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 23:11:23 -0400
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Ah, yes, the chat transcript was out there in their http space....


Bob's early comments are are wonderful examples of how Sintolotwits
avoid directly answering questions....


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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
You're tuned to the right place for tonight's chat on cults, with Marti
Chitwood of WABE, Atlanta, and guest Bob Lippmann of the Cult Awareness
Network. The chat begins at 8:00 PM eastern time. Please join us then!
We look forward to your participation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
You're tuned to a chat on cults, hosted by Marti Chitwood of WABE,
Atlanta.
Thanks for joining us!
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Hello Marti?
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
hullo. mr lippmann?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood:
Welcome everyone, this is an Internet chat about cults. Joining me is my
guest Bob Lippmann, vice-president of public information for a group
called Cult Awareness Network. Welcome Bob. I'm Marti Chtiwood in Atlanta,
Georgia, and we want to hear from you.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Yes, hello
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood:
Bob, there's controversy about the Cult Awareness Network. Is it in any
way related to the Scientology group?
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
hi marti - i'd like to know something about the genisis of the present
incarmation of CAN.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
yes, i've heard that the church of scientology drove the original CAN to
bankruptcy, then took over the name.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
is that true?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood<:
Bob, what's yopur comment? Is this true?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
The controversy concerning CAN began about 20 years ago when the group
began kidnapping and deprogramming people in groups they called cults
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwwod:
We understand that... but is the group now run by scientologists?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
that's actually not what i asked, bob. what does the current incarnation
of can have to do with scientology?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
CAN drove themselves to bankruptcy first through morally bankrupt
practices and then financially
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
BOB. one hopes you'll expand on your answer, for it doesn't bear on the
question at all.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
what role did scientology play in the bankruptcy?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood:
Bob, are you a scientologist?
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Deana Holmes @ slc59a.modem.xmission.com
According to the Wall Street Journal on 4/1/97, "Cult Awareness Network,
which has since gone into bankruptcy and whose trad name has been taken
over by Scientology-related investors."
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Deana Holmes @ slc59a.modem.xmission.com
I consider the Wall Street Journal to be quite reliable
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
The current incarnation of CAN has a multi faced board of directors;
Scientologists as well as Christians, Buddists, Jews and other are proud
to be aboard.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
do you think it's ethical to present CAN as an information group without
revealing its connection to scientology?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood:
Bob, are you a scientologist? Were you a part of the lawsuit?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
CAN is now a referral group to real experts including aca= demics,
theologians, who have studied religion here and abroad their entire
lives
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
did the wall street journal err in saying that CAN was taken over by
investors with a connection to scientology?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Does anyone here believe that scientology is a cult?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
A jury ruled in a $1+million lawsuit that CAN was liable in a kidnapping
case that involved a Christian man. That's why they declared BK
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
i think scientology is a dangerous cult.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
who was the lawyer representing the christian, bob?
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Deana Holmes @ slc59a.modem.xmission.com
Bob, your "experts" are people with ties to various groups that have
been accused of being oppressive ("cultlike") in the past
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Deana Holmes @ slc59a.modem.xmission.com
For example, J. Gordon Melton is alleged to get funding from "The
Family" (aka the Children of God)
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Dear Marti, the term Cult although Webster defines it as a religious
group has been use pejoratively for years by hate groups like CAN; CAN we get
back on the subject of CAN and criminal deprogrammings?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
You're tuned to a chat about cults, with host Marti Chitwood of WABE,
Atlanta. Please join us with your questions and comments.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
i thought the subject was cults.
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Rod Keller @ phila423-pri.voicenet.com
Nobody at the Old CAN was ever convicted of criminal deprogrammings
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Rod, where do you get your information?
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
bob, you never really confronted the question "are you a scientologist?"
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Galen Kelly, head of security for CAN was not only busted by the FBI for
a kidnapping plot against a Dupont heir, but spent time in the slammer for
another kidnapping
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Tonight's discussion deals with cults. I'd like to hear from you if you
have experiences with or opinions about cults. Bob Lippmann of CAN is here
with us, and he'll be addressing as many questions as time allows. Please
join us!
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
bob, i'd like to know what advice you would give to a parent who is
worried that a child may have been recruited by a dangerous cult.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
What is the definition of a cult? How do you define "dangerous"? It's my
opinion that cults are religious groups that don't have societal approval.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Ted Patrick was convicted we lost count how many times, (founder of
CAN), Rick Ross was fined $3 millions in a civil liberty suit by a jury
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
talllah, CAN recommends: 1. stay in communication with the child, 2. get
the actual facts you can get on our web site for the names of real experts.
3. Never pay any kidnapper for hire money to "help" you. Real experts offer
their services for free
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Tallulah, how do you define a "dangerous" cult? Bob, what do you
consider more dangerous: people who take your money or people who take your mind?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Every religion in history was at one time a cult. The difference seems
to be number of members and longevity. Dangerous cults, from our experience
have been mainly apocalyptic groups with likes to dangerous psychiatric drugs
or treatments
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
marti: i define "dangerous" as a group which harms its members,
physically or psychologically.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Well Marty, if the ones that take your mind or money are both dangerous,
God save the Democratic National Committee
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Or Newt Gingrich! But Bob, I disagree with your previous comment. The
Heavens Gate cult eschewed drugs, and they were around for a long time.
My definition of dangerous is any group that tries to subvert the
individual mind.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
what about jim jones' cult? was there a link to psychiatric drugs or
treatments in Guyana?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
The danger about discussing cults is to give too much attention to the
totalitarians who profiteer and create hate to take advantage of a
particular incident and use that as a reason to limit the civil and
constitutional rights of citizens
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Personally, I think we all need to exert more control over our own
lives.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
but i thought we were here to discuss cults. isn't that what CAN is all
about?
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, I've read just about everything on your website. It seems mostly to
have a very slanted portrayal of the old CAN. And no facts at all about
any cults, with the exception of a very short and uninformative blurb about
Higher Source.
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, I'm curious why a group called "Cult Awareness Network" seems
almost allergic to the word "cult". Outside of the name, it is nearly
impossible to find the word "cult" on the CAN website.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Good question tallulah; at Jonestown according to Pat Ryan (past
president of old CAN) in her suit vs. CIA crates of hallucinagins, barbiturates &
LSD were found at the compound in Guyana
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, traces of drugs doesn't mean everyone was using drugs, and Jim
Jones is an excellent example. How much individual control did people have to
give up to follow him and worship with him? It doesn't lie entirely with any
drugs used.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
If you prefer, call us the Church Awareness Network; most of calls are
about small Christian denominations, all over America
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
A question for everyone out there: how susceptioble are you to cultlike
behavior? What about the TV shows you watch, the music you listen to...
where do we draw the line between an interest and a cult-like fascination?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Scott; we are here discuss cults; do you know the definition? I don't
have tolerance for religious bigotry
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
bob, there seems to be a lot of questions about exactly what is a cult.
what is the definition used by CAN?
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, I am still wondering why you use the name Cult Awareness Network if
you feel "Church Awareness Network" would be a better name.
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Joey Kahn @ cnc21697.concentric.net
So Bob, What then is a cult?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Marti; how susceptible? where do we draw the line? The Marine Corp boot
camp? MTV? TV sitcoms? Political activism? Skydivers??
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
marti: i think the line can be drawn when an authority figure
(stereotypical "charismatic cult leader") begins exerting direct control over every
aspect of how you live your life.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Tallulah, I think you've got a valid point. When can that happen in our
lives, and are only young people susceptible?
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, I've seen a wide range of definitions of cult. My folklore
professor from a few years back defined it as any group that worships a nondivine
object, for example, but that definition is by no means the only one.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Scott, let's talk about worship.. What does that mean to you?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
A cult by definition, Joey is just a religious group. But, through hate
groups like old CAN, CFF, Nazi party, etc have poisoned the public
opinion well so that cults to many people in the media and the public means a
dangerous group. That's the danger of labeling
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Marti, I am largely areligious. I don't have any particular form of
worship that I adhere to.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Just about any group can be a cult, it seems. What we need to discuss is
what the guidelines are for our particular culture.
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Chapel Tibet @ 206.102.24.109
I trying to find out if I was in a cult or not.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
To "Chapel Tibet:" explain your situation, and let's let the group
tackle it.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
The problem with the charismatic leader definition is that the people of
the US under FDR, the American troops under Patton etc could be labeled
cults
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, those very groups may be described as cults 100 years from now.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
bob: isn't it facetious to label a democratically elected president a
cult leader?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
marti: i would say that a group that advocates that its members
disconnect from those outside the group bears watching.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Tallulah, I aggree. And that also describes an abusive relationship
between two people.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
When can a cult be positive? can it? Christianity's origins were around
the cult of Jesus.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
I don't think so tallulah; would it make a difference to you if
Applewhite had been elected by his group?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
marti: i agree. consider a cult a collective abusive relationship :)
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Marti, I should add that I have no problem with cults. There's a lot of
"cults" that are harmless. It's the minority of cults, the ones that use
coercive tactics to snare and retain members, that are the problem.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, any comments about abuse?
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Joey Kahn @ cnc21697.concentric.net
Actually, Bob, it sounds like Cults and yourself are doing much to lable
the word Cult aware from it's dictionary meanings. So old CAN is a hate
group? Isn't that a label too?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
i agree with scott. i think it's easy to get lost in semantics. there
are groups that are causing harm to their members. it is important that
people have a place to get information on potential coercive techniques used.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Marti, a "cult" certainly can be positive. Look at Christ's group.
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Marti, yes, pretty much every religion (arguably every religion) started
out as a "cult". SOme of them (like the Latter Day Saints and the Seventh
Day Adventists) grow through the cult stage into what Roy Wallis calls a
"denomination". Others fall apart, either quietly or spectacularily (like
the Heaven Source cult).
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, back to an older question: are you a scientologist? And do you
consider it a cult?
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
BOB -- You've said "a cult is just a religious group" this implies you'd
give the same advive to a parent who said their child was joining the
roman catholics as if the kid were joining the moonies ..or scientology..
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Scott, are the judge the judge and jury of who's right who's wrong and
who's abusing who? You're beginning to sound like a totalitarian
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, who should be judge and jury of what a cult is, and how differnet
cults should be treated? That's what we'd really like to address in this
discussion.
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Chapel Tibet @ 206.102.24.109
I was in a thing called Scientology for some 30+ years and had to quit
when it became too much of a cult. Do you have any information on this cult?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, everyone has to judge for themselves what is right or wrong.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Chapel Tibet, many people consider members of scientology members of a
cult. The issued is confused when you have high-profile people like Tom Cruise
as members. In what ways did you feel scientology became "too much of a
cult"?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Marti, I'm a Jewish Scientologist and my only objection to question is
that singled out one religion out of thousands
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, I'm singling out scientology because of who belongs to the group
and what we know about it.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
i don't think holywood celebrities have some innate gift at gaging
whether a group is a malignant or benign cult.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Scientology according the US Government is not a cult but a religion;
what religion are you?
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, there are a lot of really good resources on cults and religions on
the net. Why are there no links to any of them on the CAN web pages?
Wouldn't CAN's mission be better served by providing people with these links?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, the United States Government is constitutionally barred from
determining if a group is or is not a religion.
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Marina Chong @ palo4.pacific.net.sg
the US govt does not determine whether an organization is a cult or a
religion
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Since when does government define religion? I am a member of the proud
religion of Marti Chitwood.
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Joey Kahn @ cnc21697.concentric.net
Bob, according to the US Gov; Sintology is a tax exempt organization;
not a religion.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Jit, the current mission of CAN is to prmote religous tolerance,
dialogue, understanding, keep families together, and help people, not profit from
feuding
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, one of the rumors about Scientology is that it takes a lot of money
from its members. Is that true?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Marti, you are right. What I meant to say was that Church of Scientology
received full recognition from the IRS as a bona fide church - a
religion since 1954 - after the most exhaustive tax exempt application in
history.
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
bob: you didn't answer my question; what if a group bars its members
from communication with family?
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
bob, if that's true, might i suggest a name change to Promoters of
Religious Tolerance? isn't it doshonest to represent yourselves as a "Cult
Awwareness Group?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
yes, i agree with jim. aren't you performing a bait-and-switch on
callers seeking information on potentially dangerous groups?
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Marti, with due respect, every church has a donation system, but Idon't
see the point in singling out one religion
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Keith Spurgeon @ DIAL6-ASYNC40.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU
Mr. Lippmann, you sued CAN in 1983, did you not?
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, I think it depends on how much one is required to donate. More
importantly, what should _any_ one person be required to give to a
group: emotioanlly, spirtiually, financially?
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Keith Spurgeon @ DIAL6-ASYNC40.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU
whoops, make that he sued can in *1993* not 1983
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
The reason that I am here is to let people know that the CAN that was
spreading false rumors, lies, hatred, deciet and violence for 20 years
is dead. In it's place is a group doing what the orginal group said it was
going to do. Maintaining the continuity is a good thing. People deserve
to know the truth
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jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
bob, would you PLEASE speak to my question regarding "what exactly IS a
cult?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, what we discussed at the beginning of the hour was that any group
has the potential to spread hate, lies and deceit. What we'd like to figure
out is what our culture will support, and what we won't tolerate.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
Bob, it really bothers me that you haven't, in the entire hour you've
been here, stated what a cult is. How can you promote "cult awareness" if you
can't even say what a cult is?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
The purpose of this discussion has been to open eyes concerning cults.
Cults, by definition, are really a societal thing. In the few remaining
minutes, I'd like to talk about individual responsibility, and how going
along with the flow can make any of us susceptible to cults. Comments?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joey Kahn @ cnc21697.concentric.net
This entire thing was another attempt at manipulation. Bob's the one
that stuck in a prejudiced, intolerant world. He needs an RPF.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Joey, I'm sorry, I live in the South. What's an RPF?
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
marti: i think anyone in a vulnerable position -- students starting
college, those with family or health crisis -- could be susceptible to a
dangerous cult.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
The word "crisis" is important here. Whenever we face change, we look
for support. And sometimes the people willing to support us don't have our
best interest in mind. In our hearts we know that when greed slaps need,
we're looking down the throat of a cult.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
i think some groups take advantage of these periods of vulnerability.
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Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
IndiviHindsight is 20/20 vision; unfortunately, by the time one is deep
enough into a typical destructive cult to tell that it is one, you're
already snared. That's why we need _real_ cult awareness groups.
Unfortunately, it appears that CAN is not living up to that function.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Scott, and that's why we need discussions like this, so that people can
begin to make their own decisions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Bob, anuy final comments? We're running out of time. Anyone else, final
comments?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joey Kahn @ cnc21697.concentric.net
You see, when a Scientologies does something wrong, they report to
Ethics and pay to have the down-stat stuff removed. (Ha! Another cult term).
It's like going to mommy for a spanking but it costs money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
I personally am suspicious of people who try to make the environment of
religion or other environments look a lot more dangerous than they are;
do I detect any merchants of fear in this audience?
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Martin Mustermann @ n244-138.berlin.snafu.de
When will the US-authorities examine Scientology and its crimes closer?
Or does it need yet another Waco/Heaven's Gate tragedy for that? throughout
Europe, Scientology is already seen as a dangerous Cult. Will the US
follow that position?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Goehring @ xyplex3-4-18.ucs.indiana.edu
A bona fide group will counsel, support, console, and advise without
demanding cash payment up front or an agreement to work for 2 years (or
ten billion) first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jim bianchi @ d38.pm.sonic.net
i'm only slightly disgusted at the rather dismal showing by mr lippmann.
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Bob Lippmann @ ppp-206-170-69-24.irvn11.pacbe
Just thanks Marti for allowing me to express these views. I trust
people's ability to make up their own minds about the truth. check out our web
site
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tallulah@storm.ca @ storm03p21.storm.ca
bob: i think it ill behooves you to suggest that you are the only one
here without an agenda.
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
Marti Chitwood, host:
Thanks to everyone for this opportunity to chat in cyberspace. I'll be
back in two weeks (April 22) for a chat relating to science technology and
race with Dr. Robert Bullard. Thanks so much for coming, and I hope to see
you in too weeks!
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moderator @ soundprint2.brandywine.america
UYou've been tuned to a discussion on chats with host Marti Chitwood of
WABE, Atlanta. Thanks for joining us! Stay tuned for more provocative
online
chats from Soundprint, every Tuesday and Thursday evening in April.
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