French Long TV show
[30 Nov 1997]

Du Fer dans les Epinards, TV2, France, November 1997

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Subject: French Long TV show
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:04:02 +0100
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Saturday, from 23:15 to 0:50, we had the show registered wednesday last,
under the French national TV 2 chain, show "Du Fer dans les Epinards",
star presentator Christophe Dechavanne (he has already led some charges
against sects in the past and has had many prime time shows till last


the show was about the french government and other agencies activities
in the struggle against cults.

Were present:

- M. Alain VIVIEN, deputy, president of the first Assemblée Nationale's
Commission to study sects and cults, in 1982, now the President of the
CCMM (Centre Contre les Manipulations Mentales, a sort of Factnet in
France, but not using the Net facilities)
- M. Alain GEST, deputy, President of the second Commission against
Sects, whose report was done in 1995 (see the complete long text at

- M. Guerrier de Dumast, President of the newly formed "OIS",
"Interministerial Observatory of Cults"
- M. x, deputy, member of the second Commission against sects;
- M. x, Mayor of Paris 12th Arrondissement, where Scienos have installed
after having been bannkrupted in 199(4)
- M. x, Mayor of Louviers, where Jehovas Witnesses have installed most
of their french infrastructure some years ago;
- M. George FENECH, the excellent Lyon Judge having instructed the
Scientology suit since 1991
- M. x, judge specialized into children's affairs

- M. PESENTI, the attorney having attacked Scienos during Lyon's suit
and Lyon's appeal Court in July 97.
- Another Attorney against sects and cults, having yet 300 folders under
his arms...

- Writers:
Serge Faubert, author of "Une secte au Coeur de la République"
Bernard Fillaire, author of some books on sects, one being very devoted
to scientology self-called church (Le Grand Décervelage)
Isabelle Sebagh, ex -member of Iso-Zen having written a book against
Iso-Zen sect, founded in France and now installed after some suit in
Myself, as an ex-member of scieno and a writer;

- CCMM members and President - already named;
- Mesdames Bouvier de Cachard, founder and President of the "Secticide"
(I have the same name as them for my web site); they are mother and aunt
of a scientologist suing them since years;
- M. Fish, husband and father of two members of the sect "Albert Prince"
(or so)
- M. X, ex-member of Jehova's Witnesses having lost wife and four
children in the "Jehovas Kingdom"
- Père X, sort of Public Relations for the French Roman Catholic Church;

- Doctor Merckx, a practician having to act on the Jehovas Witnesses
when they refuse blood transfusions for their children.

Around 100 free spectators were also there in the circle, and some of
them asked questions or gave opinions.

WHAT WAS SAID (Resume: an one and half hour long show would be very hard
to give entirely):

1/ What was done during the last years by govt agencies:

- since Januray 1995, few actions were really very efficient; the
Assemblée Nationale Report on Cults was done and much used in the media,
but unfollowed by many actions; between the most important was the suit
led by the french Ministry of Education (the biggest ministry in France
with more than 700000 employees) against the well-known 'Ecole de
l'Eveil', a scieno affair supposed to teach school to scieno children.
This is now closed by justice decision, and apparently, could be trying
to open upon another name elsewhere.

- The OIS (Interministerial Observatory on Cults) was founded last
year, and a first report of activities is supposed to be given to the
various participating Ministeries in December; nevertheless, we did not
learn anything from this organism, and it was evident - as said by M.
Gest, one of its upper members, that the organism is not very active: he
did not organized any metteing between its members since June, and its
president M. Guerrier de Dumast was unable to quote any real activity
done, except the fact that they received 11000 letters from Jehovas'
Witnesses after the OIS opening.

- It is to be noted that we did not learn any decisions taken to stop
cults from acting, except those few done since years against
Scientology, whose condemnations were led by the french IRS services,
and by the National Social Insurances (URSSAF), who get Paris Org and
Paris CC out of activity (8 millions $ amends and delayed payments
having led french court of affairs to liquidate both; but both
reappeared some street later!), and anew against scientology in the Lyon
suit, and also against some others - unnamed - in few suits led by

Scientology self-called church
Jehovas Witnesses


Though most officials denied it, it was proven very amusingly the
continuing spying of scienos against any official activity.
M. FENECH, the french instruction Judge, said he was followed, subjected
to pressures emanating from cult puppets named : TRAVOLTA; MIGENES
He wrote a book on this (one I did not know and will read as soon as I
get it, I'll give some concepts emanating).

How scienos trapped themselves in: just aside M. Fenech and before me
was a guy. He asked to speak a little time after my speech against the
'religiosity' of the scieno cult, to counter what I had just said about
scientology ( and for what I was applauded, as I repeated that nobody
has never said it was a religion, but themselves, and this was confirmed
for France by Judge FENECH)

He presented himself as a scieno - and was permitted to speak though
uninvited, but Christophe Dechavanne asked him not to proselytize during
this: he was unable to restrain and was rapidly cut-off. Then some
minutes later, Dechavanne saw that another guy in the first rank was
writing everything on a paper: he asked him who he was, and his acolyte
near him: though they tried to lie first, they were forced to admit they
were also scienos! The first one then took the speech again and tried to
say that more than 150 justices decisions had been done WWide, saying
scientology was a religion, to which I assened more than once that it
was a lie and he was misinformed, and himself was heartily hooted by
everybody in the assistance - as the two others were :-))

He was: I saw the paper he was preciously keeping in hands: that was a
rewriting (instead of a photocopy) of the french appeal's court decision
, July 28th; though I did not read it entirely (impossible to do), I can
say it was most probably cut and rewritten from original by OSA goons;
it was not even a faked photocopy, but a text from a computer's file.

From then on, he was unable to speak again, and the main affair was
proven: though not informed by the Studios or the TV, 3 scienos were


Isabelle Sebagh, the ex-Iso-Zen member, was pursuing the french
government for violation of the secret in her witnessing near the
Assemblee Nationale Commission in 1994; she found her witnessing by a
journalist some times after, and a complete list of the persons having
been interrogated by the Commission was also there, despite the secrecy:
it showed some infiltrator was doing the job for scienos; once exposed,
the misdemeanor was queried by Philippe SEGUIN, the President of the
Assemblée Nationale, but we did not learn WHO was the guilty, only that
the person having given the infos was not a deputy.


Children in cults:

A large accent was pushed onto children mistreatment and french legal
possibilities to handle: Judge Fenech said there were possibilities to
do many things, though it was visible that few was done.
We had at least three different stories from mistreatments on children
or young persons; we learned that the MANDAROM cult's founder (le Messie
Cosmo-Planétaire - the Cosmo-planetarian Messiah Gilbert BOUDIN or so)
in Castellane - south france - had been released from jail though
indicted for minor rape since two years; we also learned - as an exemple
of inadequation between justice and methods used by sects - that more
than 100 children of the "children of God - Les enfants de Dieu" had
been interrogated by judge in southern france without justice being able
to prove the rapes and so on, as I understood.

Isabelle Sebagh insisted heavily on this sort of apparent inadequation -
not to say collusion perhaps - between agencies and sects, and the
children judge exposed some methods that can be used (but do not seem
very used in facts: french justice is very low on staffs and money).

Michelle Bouvier, the mother of her french scieno daughter having
attacked her in court, was heavily applauded for her story of the matter
with her daughter.

M. Fish showed us the "true Chrit's blood" and other 'miraculous
devices' used in some sects like "Les Trois Saints Coeurs" and a japan
sect whose name I do not remember.

M. X, the ex-Jehova, exposed some of the Jehovas Witnesses methods: by
instance, when he got some doubts about JW beliefs and methods, he was
continually invaded/overruned at home by a lot of JWs, from wakening to
evening: his wife was opening the doors to them...

M. Alain GEST, the president of the second commission at the Assemblée
Nationale, exposed that he wrote more than once to the Prime Minister to
indicate that he knew that a Printing House from JWs was paying its
staffs 170 $ a month, and nothing was done against -this illegal
treatment, probably because it was a sect...

Some of the Roman Catholic Church was attacked by critics because at
least one of its high ranking officers had written nonsenses about
sects: this priest, the Père VERNETTE, has said that Roman Catholic were
not to speak of sects but of new religions... I can assure you that some
years ago, he was not so good with cults.


It is clear to me that OIS is not doing much, and that french govt,
except for some actions, has not taken the problem very seriously till
now. So, I'll have to handle this as far and fast as possible, and to
check some infos I had outside from the show itself, while speaking
directly to some of the invited people. We don't need so much reports
from obscure organisms: we need complaints, queries, police's raids,
children watched over (I learned the children of my own scieno brother
were not very well educated and/or cared ).

One of the good things - not coming from the show - is that Jeaninne
TAVERNIER, the french President of the UNADFI-ADFIs - the french "CANs"
assocs, has been decorated from the Order de la Légion d'Honneur, one of
the most envied honorific medals.

So, we'll say waht comes next!