Path: sn.no!not-for-mail From: heldal@NOSPAMonline.no (Andreas Heldal-Lund) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Internet Ventures, Inc. (Response) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:31:35 GMT Organization: Operation Clambake Lines: 210 Message-ID: <345237b6.1206555334@news.sol.no> References: <344cca1d.8671929@news.supernews.com> <344f85c8.61309398@news.calstate.edu> <34513C75.312B433B@tidepool.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ti18a38-0008.dialup.online.no X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: sn.no alt.religion.scientology:387761 comp.org.eff.talk:73794 alt.censorship:171264 Thanks for finally coming forward. On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:25:25 -0500, Donald Janke wrote to alt.religion.scientology: > This is an open letter to Netizens who have been following the dispute > between Grady Ward and Tidepool Internet. > > I am the President of Internet Ventures (IVI), Inc.; and Northcoast > Internet (NCI), Inc. is part of IVI's family of Internet Service > Providers > (one of seven wholly owned ISP subsidiary corporations). Tidepool > Internet > is a d.b.a. (doing business as) of NCI. > As a long time netizen (I might even be able to say that "I was > Internet > before it was cool" since I've been online since 1988), and as the > leader of > IVI I feel it is my responsibility to participate in the postings. I expected better from you, and that includes a better respons to the cancellation of Grady Ward's account. Especially after the very clear message that has comed from people on the Net. Your attempt to make the reactions look like they come equaly from all sides is easily exposed, almost all the reactions I've seen have been condemming what Tidepool did. And from what I know of the plans ahead, a _lot_ more will learn what happened. [SNIP] > Our actions in this dispute were necessitated by abusive and > defamatory > comments, in a single posting, that Grady directed towards another human > being. We became drawn into this posting when we received a formal > complaint regarding his > postings. We had no choice but to terminate his account, under the > original > terms he himself agreed to upon opening his Tidepool account. 1 - You changed the terms after cancelling the account, please quote what in the original agreement he broke. 2 - You don't see any problem in cancelling an account only based on _one_ complaint from _one_ unknown person _claiming_ to quote _one_ post to Usenet? 3 - Does the fact that Ward did not post this post through you, make any difference? 4 - Should an ISP be responsible of guarding the language of adults, even if they are their customers? 5 - Do you see the implication of you taking the role of the guard of accepted language, that all the stuff you do _not_ censor could be looked upon as approved by you? And is that a situation you want? Or do you just want to be an ISP?? 6 - Is it the responsibility of the ISP to watch over the Intenet and take the role as the sheriff? Evaluating the possible workload this could give a reasonable big ISP, is this what you want your employees to do? 7 - You have any idea of what irony is, and how language in itself is a tool to make a point? 8 - Could you please make a FAQ including good explanations on all issues, words and speech IVI do not accept their customers do through their service? This is only a logic request since you cancel accounts _before_ even giving customers a chance to explain what they actually did or are allowed to change their ways!? (as if you still remember _who_ your actual customer is...) > As we all know, the bounds of free speech limits on the Net are > fragmented and unclear. However, there must be some outer limit to free > speech. Exactly where that limit occurs is subject to interpretation. > I have determined, for my life, where > to set my outer limit. Others have certainly set their limits to the > left and right > of my position. Within the IVI family of companies we certainly find > ourselves with > a spectrum of opinions on how far is "out of bounds" for free speech. This is not a debate about the limits of free speech, it's about the ISP Tidepool making a very bad decision based on biased and poor information served from _one_ Scientologist. How IVI manages to correct the error is the big issue now, and that is what they will be remembered for! The post by Ward you acted upon was _not_ posted through Tidepool. You made an error and you should as soon as possible serve a public excuse to Ward and of course re-establish his account. That includes his home page, which BTW never included anything illegal or any abusive language. > However this dispute is not about mine or other's personal opinions > of free > speech, it is about the outer limits that a company must set when they > decide to be > in business. As a company our limit is set when a another netizen > complains that > they were offended by language so strong that a lawsuit could result. It's enough good utilities out there today to make sure users are protected from offending language if they so wish. It's not your responsibility to protect me from Grady Ward or anybody else. But this debate is not about what limit you have either, since the post you acted upon was not posted through Tidepool. And nobody has questioned if you liked or agreed to what Ward posted to the net. It is only about the threat to free speech and to the Net that you and other ISP's (without ability to admit errors) are. Please get your facts straight. And BTW: the complaint did not even come from anyone mentioned in the post by Grady Ward. > However, > even here the law seems open to interpretation until one stands before a > judge and > says "YOU DECIDE". > Rather than taking it to the "Judge" I am proposing that we (Grady and > Tidepool) take it to the netizens. What I am suggesting is that this > dispute be opened to all on a newsgroup where both sides of the issue, > and opinions of interested parties, can be presented in an open forum. You are of course free to engage in any debate regarding free speech whenever you want, but this looks like a coward attempt to get the attention away from what you have done to Grady Ward. The dispute is open to everybody on the net, thanks to friends of Grady Ward who made sure people all around the net was told about what Tidepool did. Only a few Scientologists (that including the one who complained to you) have said anything positive about what you did. As the president of IVI you should be very concerned about what this means to your company. IMO the smartest thing to do now would be to cut your losses. Give Ward his account back, say you are sorry and make sure it looks like you have learned from this episode. Make a better agreement with your clients, one more in agreements with the ideals of the Net. If you want to make money on the Net in the future, you would be smart to support its valuable possibilities. Remember that by this your and your companies name will be subject of most search engines for the forseeable future. On the Net you have to be smart and truly act as you want to be remembered! (Of course it would be best if you meant it too, but doing it is at least half way there.) It's a simple task to make a search for all customers if IVI, for example on Usenet, and inform them of my page on the web about this fight (http://home.sol.no/~spirous/CoS/news/gw1.html). People are already talkning about it, they do not accept that they also could be cut of the net because the cult could harass or lie to their ISP. You want to set an example? You only harm yourself in this fight if you don't act smart! Make absolutely sure you are remembered for the right reasons. I don't think the Cult of Scientology is a very good "bed companion" .... > In order for Grady to participate, and present his opinions, I have > asked the > Tidepool folks to "unlock" Grady's user account. This does assume that > while participating in a "court of netizens" Grady will abide by the > original terms which > he agreed to when he opened his Tidepool account. What do you hope to accomplish with this? Will you have a vote in the end asking if Ward should be convicted? And will a judge and a jury be selected? Aren't you aware of the institution made by society to assure law and order? If the Scientologist who reported Ward to you was concerned that any law was broken, then he of course would report this to the police or bring charges agains Ward. You must remember they are the most litigious organisation we know. Either you support freedom of speech within the laws in your country, or you do not. Tell us please; what position has IVI choosen to take on this issue, if any? > I would like to suggest a newsgroup, for this discussion, should be > where we are > "on topic" to discuss "the acceptable outer limits of free speech" as > opposed to a newsgroup where free speech is utilized to state opinions > about other topics. Two suggestions are "alt.censorship" and > "comp.org.eff.talk". I would welcome Grady's opinion on where he feels > a discussion of "free speech" would be "on topic". There are many discussions going on about these subjects, and as I said; you are welcomed to join since we have freedom of speech. In the future, the case Ward vs. IVI may be used as an example. Especially how you manage to solve the problems will be important on who will use you as an example. It is of course your freedom of choice to totally ignored the threat of being placed beside the mentioned cult. Do your part not to become one of the loosers always refered to when people remember how users of the Net fought the Cult of Scientology. This cult is hurting big-time because of the Net, and you may one day be in a situation where you thank such people for daring to stand up, against all odds. You can't protect your family and friends all alone, you have to depend on others doing their part in society too. Grady Ward and many others have in the fight against this cult sacrifice more than most to prevent more inocent people becoming victims. If you ever get the time to investigate the facts behind this fight, I believe you will understand what I mean. Posted and mailed. Yours faithfully, Andreas Heldal-Lund - Adm. TOXE CXI _______________________________________________________ OPERATION CLAMBAKE --> http://home.sol.no/~spirous/CoS/ S T O P T H E C U L T O F S C I E N T O L O G Y