Operation Clambake present:
Who indeed are the mindless drones
Not only Scientologists write me. Common among the few who critisise this site is still that they seldom prepare very well.
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: ahl@xenu.net
Subject: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
Your inane babble is made to seem convincing only in comparison with the exceedingly ridiculous self righteousness of the the church of scientology. Scientologists are brainwashed fools and you by devoting so much time and energy to "exposing" them are in the end no better. believe what you want to believe and shut the fuck up about it.
Stupid people care about Tom Cruise and Scientology.
Religion is the opiate of the people.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: RE: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
>===== Original Message From [NAME REMOVED] =====
>Your inane babble is made to seem convincing only in comparison
>with the exceedingly ridiculous self righteousness of the the church
>of scientology. Scientologists are brainwashed fools and you by
>devoting so much time and energy to "exposing" them are in the end no
>better. believe what you want to believe and shut the fuck up about it.
>
>Stupid people care about Tom Cruise and Scientology.
>
>Religion is the opiate of the people.Each day people die and are abused becuase of religion. Most of the rights you treasure in your life are only there because someone somewhere in the past dared to stand up and fight for them.
Sorry is the human race when they stop fighting for their rights and freedom. That is the day they no longer deserve either.
I personally know people who have been helped to escape the abuse of cults. You might care only about you, but I believe those around me are important too. For that I am willing to fight.
Information makes free and if nobody dares to stand up and tell the truth then most will not know any better. They will be duped not because they are stupid or evil, but because they had only limited access to truth. If you don't know and understand the errors of the past you are doomed to repeat them.
You are lucky, you got the freedom of knowing both sides and make up your own opinion. You call Scientologists "brainwashed" like you invented the word and revealed the whole cult by yourself. You are obviousely not aware that many are not free to make up their own opinion. Cultists are victims. Many have grown up in cultic groups and know little about the outside. Due to pages like mine on the 'net many more have been given the oportunity to learn both sides. What you call "inane babble" has saved lifes and families. I know because I know them. And that makes it all worth it for me - no matter what the criminal cult will do to me they will never make me regret what I did. I am risking my security and personal life to share this information, I can live with a few ignorants like yourself who find reward in critizising others for daring to stand up for others.
I wish you good luck and a happy new year.
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund, Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: ahl@xenu.net home.online.no/~heldal www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning --------------------------------------------------------------- "Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph." - Haile Selassie ---------------------------------------------------------------
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
I wholeheartedly agree with you thesis regerding political action, social consiousness and objective protest. However, I am acquainted with several members of the scientology org, including an entire family, and though they are misguided, as i believe most religious people to be, they are perfectly normal, and think for themselves as much as anyone in our brave new world. I say if you condemn the church of scientology as a brainwashing cult, you must also condemn all organized religion. Catholics, Presbyterians, Muslims, Jews and Buddhists alike. if you do not you are a hypocrit, for though it may be true that the foundations of scientology are based on the fabrications of a madman, are not the teachings of the bible from equally ambigous and false roots? roots that have been scientifically proven to be false on innumerable occasions? I ask you what are your views on organized religion of all kinds, and are you as blind as those you mean to rescue from bondage?
-p
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: RE: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
1. You should read my site before criticizing it. You are definitely barking up the wrong tree if you criticize me of claiming all Scientologists are not normal thinking humans. I know thousands of current and former Scientologists and would never as a human or intellectually put myself above them. If either of us are engaged in anything close to "inane babble", as you so bluntly described it, it must be you who engage in flat out criticism and judging without first even bothering to investigate what you criticize!
2. You use terms like "misguided" easy while not able to include the consequence of your claim. Misguided is based on false or insufficient information. Still you see it fit to spend time criticizing me for providing information on a subject where you in the next sentence claim people are "misguided". Is your argument that misguided people are sacred or something, that one should not even make contradicting information available to them? By focusing your criticism on me it sure looks like this is the core of your beliefs.
3. You feel the need to tell me the Scientologists you know are "normal". After reading my site, how come you felt it was needed to tell me this?
4. You have obviously also not bothered to check what else I do since you find it valid to tell me to also condemn other religions. It is still a display of weak arguments when that is your best shot at criticizing a 'net site set up to offer criticism about a specific cult. The 'net is a web of individual sites where you have free access - all sites can not hold information about everything in order not to be hypocritical. I trust you are able to search and find the other information you need, I have no obligation to do this for you.
5. I have found the need to create a site about the Church of Scientology with the information you see because it was my personal opinion that this was missing and needed. If you search the 'net you will see that all the other religions you list already have (and accept) many critical sites. I have had it confirmed daily since November 1996 that this was a correct assumption. As far as I understand your e-mail to me you think my site is not good or it is not right of me to spend time creating it. First of all I can't understand what it is to you what I use my time doing, I never remember making any demands or expectations to how you spent your time. I actually assume you live a different life than I do and therefore I expect you do things I do not want to do. To me that is good; it would be a very boring planet if we all did the same. Secondly I have living proof that my site has changed the life of many who in some way were connected to the cult - some even claim I helped save their life. Please explain to me how your little e-mail with absolutely nothing but your poorly backed up and researched personal opinion can change anything? And if it was not aimed at changing anything, why did you write it? Do you often find yourself doing things that has no meaning or will change anything?
6. You write: "for though it may be true that the foundations of scientology are based on the fabrications of a madman, are not the teachings of the bible from equally ambigous and false roots?" But how would you have known that the bible is from equally ambiguous and false roots if everybody had listened to your advice and not talked about their discoveries or shared their opinions in open debate? How would you and the rest of the world be aware of the lies and deceit behind Scientology if you had nobody out here who dared to publish it for you? What seems to be the reasoning behind your e-mail is so thin it is scary. You should spend more time thinking things through before bursting them out. While I believe you are smart, this makes you look silly.
7. What I have against CoS is its deceitfulness, its lack of compassion for its members (especially the hard-working staff), its aggressive hard sell, its arrogance, its attack on free speech, its litigiousness, its harassment of its critics, its lack of concern for families, its gross neglect and abuse of children, etc. I do not believe the best medicine against this and what you call "misguided" is to be silent about it. I've met parents with children in mental hospitals or in the grave as a direct result of their involvement in this cult. I do not have numbers of the lost childhoods, broken families and cult ordered disconnections. We have evidence of an organization that tries to ruin the life of their critics, a cult who breaks into public records to clear their name, who lies and creates fraud. A cult like CoS differs from the mainstream religions because this is put into a system and therefore needs special attention and extra effort from dedicated individuals to combat.
8. You encourage others to "believe what you want to believe and shut the fuck up about it". I find that to be ridiculous advice totally ignoring human history and development. It is an insult to the human mind. We are humans because of our advanced ability to communicate and think. Advising people to repress that reminds me of cultic thinking. I do not believe I am the smartest person in the universe. I do not think I can find any truths by closing myself in a closet and think all my thoughts without impulses from people around me. I like to debate, to read and learn. I believe the best method to evolve is to challenge ones opinions and then be humble enough to change them when you have been shown you were wrong. That is what I do on my site. I challenge you and everybody else to tell me if there are any errors here. Please, tear my site apart! And if you are unable, then I offer to host your comments. I want to give visitors easy access to both sides so they are better equipped to make up their own mind. Please tell me again what you think is wrong with this approach and my site. But if you find no other errors with my site than your opinion that I spent to much time making it, then maybe you should question yourself instead?
9. You ask what are my views on organized religion of all kinds. I can tell you I am an Atheist, active in the secular humanism movement in Norway. Please check the debates at the bottom of this page if you are interested in my view on other religions in general: http://www.xenu.net/cb-faq.html
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund, Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: ahl@xenu.net home.online.no/~heldal www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning --------------------------------------------------------------- "Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph." - Haile Selassie ---------------------------------------------------------------
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
And another thing, From my experiance i would say christianity has been much more damaging and controlling to children than scientology, because of its massive following and endorsement by all major govornments. It is an undisputable face that more people have been murdured in the name of christianity than will ever be affected by the church of scientology. Stand back and behold the true conspiracy. a conspiracy on a much grander scale than you might have imagined. question ALL authority, not just those that other authorities tell you to question.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: RE: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
>===== Original Message From [NAME REMOVED] =====
>And another thing, From my experiance i would say christianity
>has been much more damaging and controlling to children than
>scientology, because of its massive following and endorsement
>by all major govornments. It is an undisputable face that more
>people have been murdured in the name of christianity than will
>ever be affected by the church of scientology. Stand back and
>behold the true conspiracy. a conspiracy on a much grander
>scale than you might have imagined. question ALL authority,
>not just those that other authorities tell you to question.My mind can hold more than one thought in the head at the same time. Criticizing CoS in one context does not mean that I do not also have strong opinions about other historic or current events.
Also; the wrongdoing of others is no excuse. CoS has done a lot of very bad stuff, they are still doing this and are putting up a fight when forced to adapt to modern times. They argue, like you, that other religions have done a lot of horrible things too. But that is no excuse. Each of us are judged by what we do, not just by how we compare.
What I am documenting on my site is how the deceit and fraud is organized by CoS. If you find errors anywhere here I urge you to tell me. But your naive testimony about your Scientologist friends have no effect here. Yes, they are naive because you push aside all the documentation on my site that has taken years and hard work (and not to mention risk) from hundreds of individuals just because you know a few who does not fit your fast and misunderstood interpretation of my site. It is naive because you allowed yourself to judge before you checked properly - because you jumped to the assumption that your (despite only having superficial second hand and one sided information) first opinion could not be wrong.
Hence your title suggesting I must also be a mindless drone. I've spent a lot of time investigating both sides, I've put my mind and my opinions on numerous tests in search of the truth. I've listened to Scientologists for hours and read tons of pro Scientology literature. But to you, all this only boils down to being a "mindless drone". Coming from a guy who say others should shut up about what they believe...
A lot of bad things are also done in the names of the modern established religions, but it is no longer part of their core scripture. While society once adapted to the churches, in the part of the world I live it is now the churches and religions who have been forced to adapt to society. And this is definitely not thanks to attitudes like the ones you profess!
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund, Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: ahl@xenu.net home.online.no/~heldal www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning --------------------------------------------------------------- "Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph." - Haile Selassie ---------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: RE: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
I understand you need some time to reply to all I wrote to you. Just to give you an impression of what kind of feedback I have received daily for over 6 years - below is an e-mail I received today.
Take care and Happy New Year!
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund, Postboks 131, N-4098 Tananger, Norway Pho: +47 88 00 66 66 Fax: 90 32 35 46 E-mail: ahl@xenu.net home.online.no/~heldal www.xenu.net www.hedning.no/hedning --------------------------------------------------------------- "Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph." - Haile Selassie ---------------------------------------------------------------[START QUOTE E-MAIL, SOME TEXT REMOVED TO PROTECT THE AUTHOR]There is something I would like to let you know -
I considered myself a Scientologist for over 25 years, although in the past several years I have XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and had found myself doing some quiet soul-searching regarding my affiliations with them. I certainly didn't consider myself to have turned away from them, yet I most certainly did not seen to want to have anything to do with them either. I finally decided to search for answers to questions I seemed to be having from a source OTHER than Scientology itself. That is when I found your website.
Thank you.
Thank you for all the information you gather and post on your site. As a result, I have been able to realize and am still realizing, all the lies I had bought into, and I had myself a nice long cry for a long while. I was one of the lucky ones. I never gave over my last breath to Scientology, nor my last dime, nor my last ounce of self respect. Though they sure bullied me for them all. Yet still I have my scars, and my deep regrets. But, thanks to your efforts I at last have the truth. And the ground I now, and forever more, will stand on is solid, and lush, and real.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Your friend,
XXXXXXXXXXXX
[END QUOTE E-MAIL]
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003
One furthur question before i provide a complete response:
You claim the curch of scientology has commited a plethera of serious crimes incling felony murdur and attempting to overthrow a govornment. These claims strike me as rather unrealistic... for surely if the FBI had knowledge of these events, the church would be disbanded immediatley. Why has no legal action been taken against the church of scientology? Why have I never come across any public information to that effect anywhere. Are all scientologists invisible?
[NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
At 10:22 02.01.03, you wrote:
>One furthur question before i provide a complete response:
>
>
>You claim the curch of scientology has commited a plethera of
>serious crimes incling felony murdur and attempting to overthrow
>a govornment. These claims strike me as rather unrealistic...
>for surely if the FBI hadI am not sure exactly what statements from me you quote here.
You should read about GO and OSA: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/go.htm
I would especially draw your attention to Operation Freak Out which was aimed at the author Paulette Cooper. The cult plan was to get her arrested for federal crimes (terrorist threats) or submitted to a mental institution. The cult almost succeeded framing Cooper, but a series of raids by the FBI in cult buildings resulted in the plans being exposed and the top management of the cult (including Hubbard's wife) convicted.Operation Snow White was a secret plan to remove any negative information about CoS. Among many crazy things, they broke into FBI offices and deleted files.
>knowledge of these events, the church would be disbanded
>immediatley. WhyThe cult has been caught many times and each time they just claim it was individuals who went out of line and they scream religious prosecution. We try to document how the criminal and anti-democratic activities are organized by the cult. You are given the luxury of free access to all the information and can make up your own opinion.
That's why people like me do this.
Many governments have tried to solve the cult problem, but this is not easy. We treasure individual freedom very high and there will always be groups who manage to exploit this. CoS are good at influencing the right people and at presenting a glossy official version of themselves.
>has no legal action been taken against the church of scientology?
Read the OSA/GO page mentioned above.
>Why have I never come across any public information to that effect
>anywhere. Are all scientologists invisible?All depends on how good you have looked. There is a lot of information available about this, on my site for example that you already have criticized (and then should have checked...).
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund # home.online.no/~heldal # www.xenu.net --------------------------------------------------------------- Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy. -----------------------------------------------[Carl Sagan]----
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject:
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003
Do you live in Norway? If you do, it might interest you to know that Norway has more freedom of the press than any other country in the world. The united states ranks a dismal 35th... Interesting for being the "leaders of the free world". Over seventy percent of the U.S. population is Christian... I believe that is significantly greater than in Norway as well. You live in a much more enlightened society than I. Atheists in Michigan(My home state) have more pressing matters to worry about than harmless scientologists. I don't believe the church of scientology is nearly as corrupt and evil and many Christian organizations. This is obviously due to the fact Christian churches have infinitely more power than the pathetic scientologists. George Bush control's the fate of the free world. What does L. Ron Hubbard control? A pathetic band of ex-hippy communists with very little control over anything. certainly not EVERY SINGLE SEAT OF CONGRESS. Yes a White Anglo Saxon protestant sits in nearly every seat of congress, and the supreme court. In these enlightened days we even have a few black Anglo Saxon protestants. And thank god we read from the bible (that good old un-biased rulebook for government) before every session of congress. In these times I must choose my battles carefully, for I have not the time nor the energy to fight them all. As to your derogatory comments regarding my "inaction" and how my viewpoints were a threat to the free world, I'd like to ask you if you hold a law degree from Caius College Cambridge University and if you are an active civil rights lawyer. Oh, excuse me, I seem to have forgotten that you create web pages with your time. If you really want to make a difference as you say you are now, become a lawyer and put all the "fraudulent" scientologists in jail. And don't insult the intelligence of those who have devoted their lives to the fight
-[NAME REMOVED]
I do respect your commitment to the truth and presenting objective viewpoints to everyone. Unfortunatley it takes more than freedom of information to release the enslaved minds of the masses. one must first learn to see, then one can be shown the truth.
And, I come up with my own quotes.
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re:
Date: Fri, 03 Jan
> Do you live in Norway?
Yes.
> If you do, it might interest you to know that Norway has more
> freedom of the press than any other country in the world.It is a very good country to live in.
> The united states ranks a dismal 35th... Interesting for
> being the "leaders of the free world".Well, that is something only Americans believe...
> Over seventy percent of the U.S. population is Christian...
> I believe that is significantly greater than in Norway as
> well.Official numbers for Norway is over 80 % Christian because we have an outdated state church system. True figures are probably a bit under US.
> You live in a much more enlightened society than I. Atheists
> in Michigan(My home state) have more pressing matters to worry
> about than harmless scientologists. I don't believe the
> church of scientology is nearly as corrupt and evil and many
> Christian organizations.Religions can harbour destructive and totalitarian features or awaken such in humans. Therefore all religious groups should be monitored to some degree. One problem is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to make absolute laws for where a group in abusing or might become a threat. In a open and truly democratic society we have to allow all religious groups to exist, but we also depend on individuals who dare to monitor them.
> This is obviously due to the fact Christian churches have
> infinitely more power than the pathetic scientologists.
> George Bush control's the fate of the free world. What
> does L. Ron Hubbard control? A pathetic band of ex-hippy
> communists with very little control over anything.
> certainly not EVERY SINGLE SEAT OF CONGRESS. Yes a White
> Anglo Saxon protestant sits in nearly every seat of
> congress, and the supreme court. In these enlightened
> days we even have a few black Anglo Saxon protestants. And
> thank god we read from the bible (that good old un-biased
> rulebook for government) before every session of congress.
> In these times I must choose my battles carefully, for I
> have not the time nor the energy to fight them all. As to
> your derogatory comments regarding my "inaction" and how my
> viewpoints were a threat to the free world, I'd like to ask
> you if you hold a law degree from Caius College Cambridge
> University and if you are an active civil rights lawyer.
> Oh, excuse me, I seem to have forgotten that you create web
> pages with your time. If you really want to make a
> difference as you say you are now, become a lawyer and put
> all the "fraudulent" scientologists in jail.We need all sorts to create a better society. We would not get a better society if everybody became lawyers. Still, we need them too.
> And don't insult the intelligence of those who have devoted
> their lives to the fightYou insulted your own intelligence when you jumped on this without investigating the subject very well first.
> I do respect your commitment to the truth and presenting
> objective viewpoints to everyone. Unfortunatley it takes
> more than freedom of information to release the enslaved
> minds of the masses. one must first learn to see, then
> one can be shown the truth.Of course. Life is a complex thing, there are few simple solutions. Usually you need a series of events and circumstances to reach a goal. Making information available is one factor and I know it has made a difference.
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund # home.online.no/~heldal # www.xenu.net --------------------------------------------------------------- Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003
Hello! I read your pages concerning paulette cooper and operation freak-out. I was very intrigued. The scandal has all the necessary ingrediants for a richard nixon presidential term! I had not previously come across any of this information, but I thank you for your astute observations in the matter. For the sake of playing devils advocate, I still disagree with you on some points, and question some of your conclusions. But as you so eloquently stated many times, it is indeed those who question conclusions and examine them objectively who are a catalyst to progressive social policy.
good luck in your battle against big brother...
-[NAME REMOVED]
From: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
To: [NAME REMOVED]
Subject: Re: who indeed are the mindless drones
Date: Sat, 04 Jan
Dear [NAME REMOVED],
At 17:06 03.01.03, you wrote:
>Hello! I read your pages concerning paulette cooper and
>operation freak-out. I was very intrigued. The scandal has
>all the necessary ingrediants for a richard nixon presidential
>term! I had not previously come across any of this information,
>but I thank you for your astute observations in the matter.
>For the sake of playing devils advocate, I still disagree with
>you on some points, and question some of your conclusions. But
>as you so eloquently stated many times, it is indeed those who
>question conclusions and examine them objectively who are a
>catalyst to progressive social policy.
>
>good luck in your battle against big brother...Thanks for your support, it means more than you can imagine.
PS: Would you mind if I share our debate on the site? I would of course remove your name and e-mail address first.
Best wishes, Andreas Heldal-Lund # home.online.no/~heldal # www.xenu.net --------------------------------------------------------------- Throughout history it has been the inaction of those who could have acted, the indifference of those who should have known better, the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most, that has made it possible for evil to triumph. -------------------------------------------[Haile Selassie]----
From: [NAME REMOVED]
To: "Andreas Heldal-Lund - www.xenu.net" <heldal@online.no>
Subject: Re:
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003
Feel free to post anything you like from our debate on your site. Just remove my name and adress please. Not that I am paranoid about the evil church of scientology but... you never can be sure!
[NAME REMOVED]
"If we value the pursuit of knowledge, we must be free to follow wherever that search may lead us. The free mind is no barking dog to be tethered on a ten-foot chain."- Adlai E. Stevenson
